Thievery

[Shinto]

Yes, it's a game, and yes, it should be fun, but the fact remains that any time spent here is real world time.

But you spent it playing your favorite game and clicking your mouse. This game will turn into "Heaven for sims" without thievery and stuff. And you can make a new items in a few weeks (mostly in a few days). So I can't agree with you. More then that you'll have an optional part of the game - "Find that **** thief". I don't want to be a ranger 'cause I don't like to kill people so I joined the other side xD (oh, killing is bad even in this game - it's not a weeks of gaming, but months etc.)

This game has such potential! Has anyone taken a hostage and presented themself at a village gate demanding it be opened or they will kill their victim?

zomfg, leave this for terrorist's guild x__X

I don't think it's fun to destroy and to kill just for fun... It's just not fun at all. I was "destroying" crops only when I was very hungry xD
I'm not such an asshole to do this sort of things. What I want is some kind of organized thievery. Some places where you can trade some stolen goods, hideouts, information sharing etc. But there are three big problems: 1) communication - huge world for only 300 players 2) no demand for goods - there's not much things that you can steal and then trade, it's easier to steal just for yourself. 3) huge map - no one wants to have a centralized meeting near Statue of Blaze 'cause it's too far for most of us. So we need some local offices but even with a one office on SG it would be 25 - 25 office keepers... It's about 10% of thieves in H&H xD So we are still thinking about a "guild" so this topic is more like "My opinion about thievery" until we solve this problem... or not

[Zamte]

I'm not saying you shouldn't be a thief. It's a part of the game, as you said, and you can feel free to do it if you want. The point I was making that... regardless of it being part of the game, it is still the enjoyment of ruining the enjoyment of others. You can be a thief all you want to, for any reason you want to, but the nonsense about how it's a feature of the game and thus we can't/shouldn't hold it against you is just silliness. It will be held against you, and should be. Be a thief, but don't try to weasel out of the reaction to it.

[theTrav]

I didn't write that

[Shinto]

omg, read the first post! As I said - kill me, search for me etc. It's interesting. All I'm trying to say - don't make a big deal about it like screaming "**** thieffssss!" , breaking your keyboard, kicking your table, spinning your cat above your head and quiting the game. That's all... and of course I don't wanna ruin everything that you have... Just some stuff that I need or I can sell :3

[kralmir]

omg, read the first post! As I said - kill me, search for me etc. It's interesting. All I'm trying to say - don't make a big deal about it like screaming "**** thieffssss!" , breaking your keyboard, kicking your table, spinning your cat above your head and quiting the game. That's all... and of course I don't wanna ruin everything that you have... Just some stuff that I need or I can sell :3

what they are saying is that even if you say its a game it doesnt make the hours invested in getting the stuff they lose to theft any less or any more ok cause its "just a game" cause the time invested is real.

[Pansy]

Basically, most of the thieves and raiders are just throwing their weight around and in the process impressing nobody. And it is a pity. This game has such potential! Has anyone taken a hostage and presented themself at a village gate demanding it be opened or they will kill their victim? Has anyone issued a challenge to a friend: "Get into my village and get the chest of cave bulbs I am holding there. See if you can do it!" Has anyone tried stealing high q stuff and substituting lower q stuff to trick the owner into not realising there has been a theft? The gaming potential for a clever rogue is enormous. But it doesn't seem to be happening.

How are players supposed to keep someone hostage long enough to receive a ransom?

Well, let's say I know that the town of Zurglingburg has an iron mine and very likely produces steel. Me an' my two rogue friends suddenly jump out on Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol just as they beach their boat on their way back to the village with a fresh catch of plaice and aggro them with archery. They can't log out or we can kill them and they can't run for it or we kill them. We explain to Fisher Karol that she is going to trot up to Zurglingburg and come back with six (6) bars of steel or Fisher Joe gets it. She is to come back within eight minutes and she is to come back alone.

Would this work? If Fisher Karol is smart she gets village member Sam to hastily steal the steel so that it will have thief scents attached to it, but she doesn't have much time. Also, she is obviously going to be in party with Raider Killer Louise and Raider Killer George who are sneaking after her with intent to aggro the hostage takers before they can hearth away with the loot but they might or might not succeed. After all, I guess Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol will be in aggro with us. But if they don't drop aggo we have to kill them in order to hearth, but if they cooperate and don't aggro with us we can escape without killing them.

If me 'an my rogue friends are smart, we allow both Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol to live, and publicise this incident, then other people will know we allow our hostages to live, so it is safe to pay the ransom. Now, I think the plan of getting into their village is a darned risky one, but hey, if we were attack Noo Noobville, and they just barely have their pallisade up so we are fairly sure that in a fight they would lose, they might be willing to open that gate, stand sulking while we search for valuables... "Whaddya mean q6 boar meat is the best str food you got?? How can you possibly even produce q6 boar meat??" ... "One silk moth?? No mate? Crap! Useless!!" ... and it provides an interesting and memorable encounter all around.

I'm not saying this plan is without flaws, as it certainly means risking characters that have at least got enough lp to have rage and theft but it is hardly more risky than stomping in to the unfinished pallisade at Noo Noobville three days earlier, killing the three people we find and dumping three cupboard loads of q11 carrots, which is the thief and raider behavior that I tend to see.

[Brickbreaker]

So you guys expect him to steal but not damage the victim too much?
Well this is my logic:

If I were ever to steal I would be aware that I leave a scent. The person I steal from will receive my scent and has the ability to kill me, which is
much too punishing for me to.. lets say stealing a few pearls?
Therefore if I'm gonna steal, then im gonna steal hard and damage the victims area so much in fact he can't recover quickly enough to get revenge and kill me.
Also even if the victim does end up killing me, at least I would die satisfied knowing I've done a bit of damage to him as well.

So tell me... what's to stop me from that?

[Jackard]

Basically, most of the thieves and raiders are just throwing their weight around and in the process impressing nobody. And it is a pity. This game has such potential! Has anyone taken a hostage and presented themself at a village gate demanding it be opened or they will kill their victim? Has anyone issued a challenge to a friend: "Get into my village and get the chest of cave bulbs I am holding there. See if you can do it!" Has anyone tried stealing high q stuff and substituting lower q stuff to trick the owner into not realising there has been a theft? The gaming potential for a clever rogue is enormous. But it doesn't seem to be happening.

How are players supposed to keep someone hostage long enough to receive a ransom?

Well, let's say I know that the town of Zurglingburg has an iron mine and very likely produces steel. Me an' my two rogue friends suddenly jump out on Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol just as they beach their boat on their way back to the village with a fresh catch of plaice and aggro them with archery. They can't log out or we can kill them and they can't run for it or we kill them. We explain to Fisher Karol that she is going to trot up to Zurglingburg and come back with six (6) bars of steel or Fisher Joe gets it. She is to come back within eight minutes and she is to come back alone.

Would this work? If Fisher Karol is smart she gets village member Sam to hastily steal the steel so that it will have thief scents attached to it, but she doesn't have much time. Also, she is obviously going to be in party with Raider Killer Louise and Raider Killer George who are sneaking after her with intent to aggro the hostage takers before they can hearth away with the loot but they might or might not succeed. After all, I guess Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol will be in aggro with us. But if they don't drop aggo we have to kill them in order to hearth, but if they cooperate and don't aggro with us we can escape without killing them.

If me 'an my rogue friends are smart, we allow both Fisher Joe and Fisher Karol to live, and publicise this incident, then other people will know we allow our hostages to live, so it is safe to pay the ransom. Now, I think the plan of getting into their village is a darned risky one, but hey, if we were attack Noo Noobville, and they just barely have their pallisade up so we are fairly sure that in a fight they would lose, they might be willing to open that gate, stand sulking while we search for valuables... "Whaddya mean q6 boar meat is the best str food you got?? How can you possibly even produce q6 boar meat??" ... "One silk moth?? No mate? Crap! Useless!!" ... and it provides an interesting and memorable encounter all around.

I'm not saying this plan is without flaws, as it certainly means risking characters that have at least got enough lp to have rage and theft but it is hardly more risky than stomping in to the unfinished pallisade at Noo Noobville three days earlier, killing the three people we find and dumping three cupboard loads of q11 carrots, which is the thief and raider behavior that I tend to see.

Anyone that has a worthwhile ransom is probably capable of killing you or getting someone else to do it for them.

ps. in the meantime have fun trying to keep your hostage aggroed to prevent them from logging out or hearthing

[Pansy]

So you guys expect him to steal but not damage the victim too much?
Well this is my logic:

If I were ever to steal I would be aware that I leave a scent. The person I steal from will receive my scent and has the ability to kill me, which is
much too punishing for me to.. lets say stealing a few pearls?
Therefore if I'm gonna steal, then im gonna steal hard and damage the victims area so much in fact he can't recover quickly enough to get revenge and kill me.
Also even if the victim does end up killing me, at least I would die satisfied knowing I've done a bit of damage to him as well.

So tell me... what's to stop me from that?

Nothing whatsoever except perhaps the knowledge that murder scents last much longer than thief scents, and the tracking and revenge killing seems to usually be done by someone other than the victim, like his friends who weren't logged on at the time. That guy who actually tracks you down? He's probably not going to be someone you raided at all so you'll do no damage to him unless you can get a vendetta going and have him revenged killed for your killing.

It seems to me that if you steal from a noob not only can the noob not track you himself, but even if he has friends who can do it they will say "meh" and suggest that q6 boar meat and one female silk moth with only two hours left to live are not worth the trouble of tracking you down. However if you kill poor Random Noob his friends are more likely to think you are Menace to the Neighbourhood and go after you.

And you are not likely to be going after the Big Boys Of Sodomy, since they probably are too big for you to tackle. Eight layers of brick wall?? No, it's the newly established towns that get stomped when they are new enough to be vulnerable, but old enough to have gotten some valuables.

If my area is trashed it is not going to slow me down in tracking you. Chances are I will drop my diet and allow my attributes to get out of balance while I stomp steadily north towards your hearth fire, and the loss of my pearls, silk, sausage grinder and cheeses will in no way slow me down, let alone the fact that my entire field of q 80 grapes got picked and tossed on the ground. All I need is a way in at your hearth and pearls and silk and sausage grinders won't give that to me.

If you kill me... well, unfortunately for you the death of my character does not in any way cause me to lose the ability to pm my friends, bounty hunters, alts, relatives and such. But it does give me incentive to start summoning them, as opposed to say, going to the woods for lumber to start patching my pallisade.

When you destroy my stuff and my characters I don't see you as trying to win in the game, I see you as trying to discourage me from playing at all. And this means that rather than trying to play with you, I see you as someone who stops me from playing the game and therefore rather than interacting with you, I'd just like to see you eliminated. There is no point in trying to extort a wergild from you, or in trying to get my stuff back, or finding a new place to hide my cellar cheese, let alone hiring you to kill my worst enemy down the river, although judging by the fact that you got through my pallisade you should be able to get through his. (What's the going rate for a hit, in Stilton?)

If, however you show signs of thinking this world is big enough for both of us- all you do is say, steal cheese and don't damage my infastructure or kill me, my friends are not going to be so incensed that they are willing to risk a 1.5 million lp character just to bust a cap in your ass. They are going to tell me to go and get my own revenge with my 1.25 million lp character if it matters so much to me. But I'm not going to be willing to risk my 1.25 million character over some silly cheese. Instead I am going to start on a new batch of cheese and a big batch of bricks to reinforce my wall.

This in turns means that you can come back in a week and a half, coincidentally just as my cheese is ripening into the most valuable stage, and coincidentally that much stronger than you had been the first time you raided (due to a diet high in dairy foods) and you can have a go at my wall to see if your strength increase is enough to get you inside again.

I may be sputtering in indignation, and I may be frustrated, but I have a lot more options that merely rage quitting, or trying to see you dead. Hmmm... maybe if I pay Danegelt you will try Grid M3 instead of my grid? How about if I tell you about the location of a gold mine in M3? Hmm.... or whatabout if I see if I can get a thief alt to start training with you, the better to become a great thief tracking ranger? I dunno about you, but I think all these other possibilities are way better for us both than logging on to find your main's character option is missing and that there is a new runestone in the character creation room.

[Brickbreaker]

Ok. So to summarize your post you are basically saying if I don't steal too much then the victims would not bother hunting me down. But if I do take too much then a ranging party will come and track me down.

But I could argue that even if I ended up stealing what I needed, I value the stolen goods just as much as the victim does.
For example.
If I manage to enter someone's area and I find a cupboard full of cheese, by following what you're saying then I could take something like 5 slices and leave.
The owner would find 5 slices not worth the effort of tracking me down and would probably forget about it. But you also got to remember that I the thief too wants
to benefit from this and 5 slices are still not really worth stealing. Which in that case I decide to steal the entire cupboard, because it's worthwhile.
Stealing the entire cupboard would almost certainly anger the owner.

Another point is. If I steal 'anything' from a piece of Q4 leather to a chest of dragon's helms. The owner would acknowledge that a robbery has took place and despite what's stolen he wouldn't want it happening again. Therefore decides to improve his defences.
So me being the thief would think ahead and grab what I can because next time I visit it would be much harder (or impossible according to the recent wall updates)
to enter.