I hate everyone

[shubla]

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or social communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

Guess this "minority" has a different view on being the minority

You raise a good point - I don't think the majority of players that come to Haven have the primary goal of killing players, so I admit some inaccuracy in saying that exceptions to the "PvP MMO" crowd are the minority, at least as an absolute statement.
But the way the game is set-up, the "PvP MMO" players are the ones that stick around and make up the vast majority of active players at any given time.

Of course, I have nothing to base this on other than my own interaction with people in the world and my previous village experiences, but I feel extremely confident that my experience is an accurate representation of the game at large.

An exercise for you:
Count off in your head the number of large populous cities that you know, their political affiliations, and if the groups primary focus is PvP. I can't think of any that weren't, except for Emerald City and the ill-fated Brodgars.
Take a look at the discussion of in-game activities. It is almost solely a conversation about people killing and/or raiding other people: Requests for scents to be tracked, and bragging about kills/raids.

I don't think this is an unpopular idea, the players seem to identify Haven with its open PVP aspect:
People compare the game to another where the sole objective is to kill and/or cannibalize other players.

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; creating an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

Isn't the only implied social contract to be aware that your scents can be tracked ?!? i wonder how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" ?

Haven was close at one point.
Unfortunately, it sunk as Atlantis - but half finished.

I would propose a few ingredients accomplish this-

A proper balance of scarcity of materials and goods by some mixture of:
- Their rarity in the world
- The difficulty of obtaining them because they are distant
- The complexity in their production
- The permanent consumption of these valuable materials and goods

The ability to better yourself by these resources by force:
- Raid and steal valuable goods
- Destroy claims and take territory from others to obtain natural resources
- Kill people around a natural resource to ensure that the resource remains in good supply
- Claim, secure, and defend resources to deny access to others

The likelihood of repercussion for using force to obtain these resources (usually) outweighing the value of the forcefully taken resource:
- Ability to hunt down perpetrators of crimes with a reasonably high degree of certainty
- An absence of mechanics that allows criminals to effectively insulate themselves from any retaliation


What would this do?
You need to work with others over a larger geographical area to obtain maximum effectiveness. (You couldn't just import everything you need to your city then become entirely self-sufficient.)
You understand that cooperation is the logical and optimal path forward.
People still want to kill each-other and often act illogically, so conflict will still exist, and this will need to be dealt with.

Haven was close, but with the advent of bots to ease production, high amounts of easy LP reducing the need for specialization, free access to teleportation, and the advent of the ubiquitous brickwall (among other things) undermined this delicate interplay of interests. Now, as in PvP MMOs, most players simply grind their way to PvP viability and travel the world in search of people to raid and/or kill and/or grief.

Maybe when people die they drop "piece of meat" That gives 1% of every attribute they had

[chocolaterain]

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or social communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

Guess this "minority" has a different view on being the minority

You raise a good point - I don't think the majority of players that come to Haven have the primary goal of killing players, so I admit some inaccuracy in saying that exceptions to the "PvP MMO" crowd are the minority, at least as an absolute statement.
But the way the game is set-up, the "PvP MMO" players are the ones that stick around and make up the vast majority of active players at any given time.

Of course, I have nothing to base this on other than my own interaction with people in the world and my previous village experiences, but I feel extremely confident that my experience is an accurate representation of the game at large.

An exercise for you:
Count off in your head the number of large populous cities that you know, their political affiliations, and if the groups primary focus is PvP. I can't think of any that weren't, except for Emerald City and the ill-fated Brodgars.
Take a look at the discussion of in-game activities. It is almost solely a conversation about people killing and/or raiding other people: Requests for scents to be tracked, and bragging about kills/raids.

I don't think this is an unpopular idea, the players seem to identify Haven with its open PVP aspect:
People compare the game to another where the sole objective is to kill and/or cannibalize other players.

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; creating an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

Isn't the only implied social contract to be aware that your scents can be tracked ?!? i wonder how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" ?

Haven was close at one point.
Unfortunately, it sunk as Atlantis - but half finished.

I would propose a few ingredients accomplish this-

A proper balance of scarcity of materials and goods by some mixture of:
- Their rarity in the world
- The difficulty of obtaining them because they are distant
- The complexity in their production
- The permanent consumption of these valuable materials and goods

The ability to better yourself by these resources by force:
- Raid and steal valuable goods
- Destroy claims and take territory from others to obtain natural resources
- Kill people around a natural resource to ensure that the resource remains in good supply
- Claim, secure, and defend resources to deny access to others

The likelihood of repercussion for using force to obtain these resources (usually) outweighing the value of the forcefully taken resource:
- Ability to hunt down perpetrators of crimes with a reasonably high degree of certainty
- An absence of mechanics that allows criminals to effectively insulate themselves from any retaliation


What would this do?
You need to work with others over a larger geographical area to obtain maximum effectiveness. (You couldn't just import everything you need to your city then become entirely self-sufficient.)
You understand that cooperation is the logical and optimal path forward.
People still want to kill each-other and often act illogically, so conflict will still exist, and this will need to be dealt with.

Haven was close, but with the advent of bots to ease production, high amounts of easy LP reducing the need for specialization, free access to teleportation, and the advent of the ubiquitous brickwall (among other things) undermined this delicate interplay of interests. Now, as in PvP MMOs, most players simply grind their way to PvP viability and travel the world in search of people to raid and/or kill and/or grief.

Maybe when people die they drop "piece of meat" That gives 1% of every attribute they had

I just love it when people inline quote a wall of text and then add a whole sentence of their own at the end of it.

Makes for a great post.

don't be so racist jorb

[ArvinJA]

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or social communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

Guess this "minority" has a different view on being the minority

You raise a good point - I don't think the majority of players that come to Haven have the primary goal of killing players, so I admit some inaccuracy in saying that exceptions to the "PvP MMO" crowd are the minority, at least as an absolute statement.
But the way the game is set-up, the "PvP MMO" players are the ones that stick around and make up the vast majority of active players at any given time.

Of course, I have nothing to base this on other than my own interaction with people in the world and my previous village experiences, but I feel extremely confident that my experience is an accurate representation of the game at large.

An exercise for you:
Count off in your head the number of large populous cities that you know, their political affiliations, and if the groups primary focus is PvP. I can't think of any that weren't, except for Emerald City and the ill-fated Brodgars.
Take a look at the discussion of in-game activities. It is almost solely a conversation about people killing and/or raiding other people: Requests for scents to be tracked, and bragging about kills/raids.

I don't think this is an unpopular idea, the players seem to identify Haven with its open PVP aspect:
People compare the game to another where the sole objective is to kill and/or cannibalize other players.

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; creating an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

Isn't the only implied social contract to be aware that your scents can be tracked ?!? i wonder how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" ?

Haven was close at one point.
Unfortunately, it sunk as Atlantis - but half finished.

I would propose a few ingredients accomplish this-

A proper balance of scarcity of materials and goods by some mixture of:
- Their rarity in the world
- The difficulty of obtaining them because they are distant
- The complexity in their production
- The permanent consumption of these valuable materials and goods

The ability to better yourself by these resources by force:
- Raid and steal valuable goods
- Destroy claims and take territory from others to obtain natural resources
- Kill people around a natural resource to ensure that the resource remains in good supply
- Claim, secure, and defend resources to deny access to others

The likelihood of repercussion for using force to obtain these resources (usually) outweighing the value of the forcefully taken resource:
- Ability to hunt down perpetrators of crimes with a reasonably high degree of certainty
- An absence of mechanics that allows criminals to effectively insulate themselves from any retaliation


What would this do?
You need to work with others over a larger geographical area to obtain maximum effectiveness. (You couldn't just import everything you need to your city then become entirely self-sufficient.)
You understand that cooperation is the logical and optimal path forward.
People still want to kill each-other and often act illogically, so conflict will still exist, and this will need to be dealt with.

Haven was close, but with the advent of bots to ease production, high amounts of easy LP reducing the need for specialization, free access to teleportation, and the advent of the ubiquitous brickwall (among other things) undermined this delicate interplay of interests. Now, as in PvP MMOs, most players simply grind their way to PvP viability and travel the world in search of people to raid and/or kill and/or grief.

Maybe when people die they drop "piece of meat" That gives 1% of every attribute they had

I just love it when people inline quote a wall of text and then add a whole sentence of their own at the end of it.

Makes for a great post.

don't be so racist jorb

lol