Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby shockedfrog » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:15 pm

This was originally intended as a reply to the 'lots of questions' topic in the How Do I? forum, but ended up kinda big and probably fits better here, tell me if this is flawed from the start or add anything I've missed. :)

I'm thinking like this:
A player can use the tracking skill either on their own land (after returning to it and discovering it's been trespassed upon), or on the site of a assault/murder, or for any other crimes that I can't think of right now. It can only be used when the act is actually illegal, though (if you're legally allowed to kill someone, then you won't be trackable for doing so). When the skill is used, an entry is added to their tracked criminals list, and this entry can also be shared with others (however, those entries shared with non-victims will be removed if the original victim(s) forgive the criminal). This entry doesn't actually identify who the player is, but having it means that upon seeing the player (possibly full view distance, maybe just within a certain number of tiles) they'll be highlighted somehow, perhaps a little icon above their heads. That in itself should make it difficult for criminals to stay in built up areas.

The potential problems I can see so far:
1 - Since built up areas are going to pretty dangerous to be, criminals will just hide further away, since it's not going to be too difficult to survive that way for a while. I'm not sure tracking should be so powerful that it points exactly to where someone's gone, but it needs to be more useful than mentioned above. I'm kinda basing this on Mount & Blade's tracking system - A player with an active criminal status could maybe leave a track every so often, not too often (it'd probably kill the server otherwise :) but I think every RL minute or two should be possible. These tracks are only visible to players who are tracking that criminal, and each track says how long ago it was left. The gap between tracks would be enough that it would require the player to think for themselves which way the criminal is going next, or just take a lucky guess. :) However, the criminal would only have so much space to run - eventually, they would likely end up crossing a path they've been before, which would make it easier for a tracker to find more recent tracks, reducing the distance between them. This is one of those things that's kinda hard to tell if it'd work or not without testing it in action, though.

2 - What encourages players to help track down criminals? Multiple victims of the same criminal obviously have a good reason to help each other (though not always) but the system is most effective when other players help to enforce the law. Some kind of karma bonus for tracking down a criminal would probably work, once karma has some kind of purpose. Some players might act as bounty hunters who'll help out in exchange for goods, or for their share of whatever loot they get from the criminal.

3 - How to deal with criminals who are offline? One possible solution is that a player with an active criminal status should be unable to log off in the normal way, they can quit but their character will remain in-world (however, to be fair, the timer that determines how long before the criminal is able to lose their trackers would decrease during this time). Alternatively, perhaps only reduce the timer during times when both the victim and criminal are online, but introduce a second, longer timer that counts down whenever the criminal is online regardless of whether the victim is and has the same effect of losing the trackers, so that the victim cannot abuse the first timer by sharing the tracked player with others but staying offline.

4 - Catering for the actual aim of the tracker. Do they want the criminal dead, or maybe just beaten up a bit, or do they just want their stuff back (or other compensation)? I think that kind of stuff is probably too complicated to include as part of the system, but maybe doesn't really need to be, just leave it up to the players. However, there is one major problem here - if someone steals from multiple people, and then one of them hunts them down, are they entitled to everything? If so, that's pretty open to abuse - one person steals loads of stuff, another kills them, they then have everything, 'legally'. I can think of ways to get around this by tagging items as stolen, but this is difficult to get right - I'd like a system that works based on whether someone knows if an item is stolen or not, so if someone trades knowingly stolen items they get some kind of karma penalty, while if someone obtains a stolen item unknowingly, and then the original owner sees it and the item is tagged as stolen, the receiver is given some kind of grace period to give it back without penalty (or maybe even a karma reward, though it could be abusable like so much else) - the whole thing is horribly complicated, haha. But I'm sure there's a reasonable solution if we take the time to discuss it.

EDIT: I forgot to go in-depth on how to lose trackers. My thought is that the timers (the length of which would depend on the severity of the crime - multiple victims can pool together their timers to give them more time to catch the criminal) are 'part one' of losing them - after the timer runs out, the criminal might still have to do something to change their identity, that would require gathering certain ingredients to make the 'disguise'. This disguise wouldn't actually change how they look in-game, because that'd be pretty obvious, it just loses trackers. Also, if a stolen item system was implemented, then it would be seperate from the tracking - if it's obvious that you're using an item you stole, then no amount of time should stop that, though there could be some way of customizing an item that wipes its stolen status.
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby sami1337 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:23 pm

Not going to argue your idea's. But just wanted to say the wurm online tracking is pretty good too. It's based around your tracking skill. Upon inspecting the ground it will tell you which direction to go to and how fresh the tracks are. At default level it will probably lead you in circles..
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby shockedfrog » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:40 pm

Haven't played wurm (never heard of it until people compared this to it), sounds solid enough for it but I was working on it being a skill the player will either have or not have rather than having a certain skill level within it.
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby shockedfrog » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 pm

Jorb mentioned the offense points idea here which sounds along the right lines to me.

The questions that I think should be thought about now are:

1 - At what point is someone awarded offense points against another player? I like the idea that a player who is smart enough to commit a crime in such a way that he is never identified as the culprit will be able to get away without offense points against them. They would still lose karma, and would be subject to the penalties that bad karma might cause. I don't know if anything has actually been said on what these might be - perhaps things that would affect everyday living, such as food occasionally poisoning the player?

2 - What should happen in the event of reincarnation after an unjustified murder? Does the reincarnated player have the right to avenge their own death? This is a hard one for me to say either way - after being murdered, I know I'd want to be able to legitimately seek revenge (or, given my probable weak state after reincarnation, trade offense points to someone more capable) but it doesn't really feel right/make much sense, not that everything necessarily has to do so. Perhaps instead it would be better to give the reincarnated player a bonus? One possibility would be reduced stat/LP loss compared to a normal reincarnation, but this could potentially be abused as a source of cheap reincarnation. Maybe some kind of temporary bonus (a starting 'blessing') would be better, something not hugely abusable but not completely meaningless to the player either.
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby loftar » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:42 am

As for karma, that system will most likely be completely removed. We added it just for testing, and we decided that it had several flaws; the primary and foremost being that it was too un-Germanic in nature. :)

Rather, the offense point idea is intended to replace it completely, if we decide for it and work out the details properly. The awarding of offense points will probably be, quite simply, determined by explicitly offensive actions, such as trespassing, manipulating stuff on people's claimed land, and starting a fight, knocking them out (but only if the aggressor in the fighting relation knocks his victim out; the victim should be free to do the same to the aggressor), or murdering them. I think there should be a nice economic effect for it, as well; bounty hunters might easily gain possessions by buying up offense points against people and then looting them. :)

The original idea of the karma system was to auto-generate quests against people who have bad karma. I still like the thought of that, but it might not be necessary if we can get offense points working correctly. I feel that the danger of the system of offense points is that the way we decide to award offense points may be far too arbitrary. We'll see how it works out.

As for reincarnation after unjustified murder, I firmly believe that all offense points should be inherited by the new character. Blood-feuds are a totally Germanic feature. :)
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby theTrav » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:22 am

All sounds good.

With respect to tracking ownership of stolen goods, I'd be happier if goods were only considered owned if they were dropped on claimed land and as soon as they are taken off claimed land they are no longer owned.

It'd be easier on the server, it'd be less confusing for players, and exploitation aside, it would make for profitable bounty hunting :twisted:
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby shockedfrog » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:55 pm

I think there needs to be some opportunity to get away with things, at least for trespassing/thievery :) Right now it kinda sounds like someone stealing would automatically be given offense points against them, which seems like it would almost guarantee a fight, which kinda defeats the purpose of stealing rather than just killing and looting. Someone who steals stuff should expect to be tracked down to some extent, of course, but the whole point should be to avoid fighting unless it's absolutely necessary.

Trav - I'm not entirely sure how that works at all, it sounds like all a thief would have to do to become an item's legal owner is, uh, steal it. Also, I'm trying to include items stolen from knocked out players.
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby RaptorJedi » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:05 pm

I have a suggestion for dealing with thieves while you are offline. When animal taming gets added, make it so you can tame bears or foxes to guard your property while you are offline. And if anyone who isn't on your kin list or in your party trespasses, they get attacked. Maybe it make it so they are slightly stronger than the wild versions.
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby theTrav » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:00 am

RaptorJedi wrote:I have a suggestion for dealing with thieves while you are offline. When animal taming gets added, make it so you can tame bears or foxes to guard your property while you are offline. And if anyone who isn't on your kin list or in your party trespasses, they get attacked. Maybe it make it so they are slightly stronger than the wild versions.


That idea is pure awesome!
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Re: Ideas for a tracking skill and generally dealing with crime

Postby shockedfrog » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:13 am

I think I mentioned guard dogs in another topic, but guard foxes and guard bears do sound kinda awesome. :) However, I don't think it's right for them to be particularly strong, unless making them so took some effort, perhaps having to spend LP to strengthen them and that LP is lost forever if the tamed animal is killed.
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