Randomly knocked out-Russians!

[Potjeh]

They were Vikings.

[al]

I'm Brazilian, probably not the best person to talk about Russian history, but as far as I am concerned, Moscow was founded by the Rus people. The Rus were the ancestors of Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians, they were NOT "the Russians" simply because Russia didn't exist yet, nor did the Grand Duchy of Muscovy (for obvious reasons). It is plain ridiculous to claim that Kievan Rus' was "Russian" and not Ukrainian or Belorussian when none of the three peoples existed yet. There was no nationalism or national identity prior to the XIX century also, so I hardly think that Russians existed before Russia. The division of Kievan Rus' happened due to political reasons, it had nothing to do with nationality.

The name "Rus" has two meanings:
1. A supposed tribe of Vikings or Polabian Slavs who came to rule Novgorod, accordingly with Primary Chronicle. Rus as "русь" (lowercase first letter).
2. A state of Slovenian people named after that tribe. Rus as "Русь" (uppercase first letter).

People of Rus (the state) used two adjectives to describe themselves or something linked to their state or identity:
1. "Russkie" (and its singular forms) was the mostly used one and universal adjective. For example, "русская земля" ("Russian land"). "Руськие"/"руские"/"русские" - different spelling of the same word.
2. "Rusyn" was used to describe Rus's citizenship only and was mostly used in singular. "Русин", English "Ruthenian" is a form of this word. "Rusyn" quickly fell into disuse, and centuries later it became an ethnonym of Carpatian Slavs ethnic group.

The other name of Rus state rarely used by Rus officials at that time was "Rosia" (which was Byzantian name of Rus state).

The official title of monarch was "Великий князь" and "русский князь" ("Grand Knyaz", "Russian Knyaz"). When the state collapsed to feudal struggle many of Princedoms used this title or its modification - "Великий князь всея Руси" ("Grand Knyaz of all Rus").

Princedoms themselves were named after their capital cities. For example, Grand Duchy of Moscow ("Великое княжество Московское") which was a successor to Vladimir-Suzdal Principality on the same territory.

Rus people (including those under foreign European rule) still indetified themselves as "Russkie" and thought of themselves as one nation, though separated (and that was perceived as a very tragic fact).

Duchy of Moscow managed to unite most of the Rus except land under foreign European control. Its name changed to Czardom of Russia ("Царьство Руское" or "Царство Русское"). Please, note the word "Russia" in the English term at the place where is a singular form of the adjective "Russkie" in the official name.

After reunification they came to this new ideology that, after the fall of Byzantine Empire, Rus mission as a nation was to protect the true faith - Orthodox Christianity. So, "Rosia" ("Русия", "Росия", and modern "Россия"; from the Byzantium name of the state Rus) as a poetic, religion-oriented, and westernized name of the country had been gaining popularity. Until it was included in official titles, and then finally became an official name of the country.

Citizens of Russia and ethnic Rus people were still identified as "Russkie".

Adjective of "Rosia" indicating people is "Rossiane". It appeared only in XVII-XVIII, and was used mostly as poetic and ceremonical name to describe citizenship and people of the Russian nation-state (not an ethnicity).


And what was that all about:

1. Ethnonym "Russkie" remained since the first time it was used until today and points towards Russian ethnicity, people of Russia-Rus.
2. Name "Rossiane" has never pointed to ethnicity, only to the citizenship (as it is now).
3. "Russkie" and "Rossiane" are both translated to English as "Russians".
4. "Russia" is used as a translation of modern "Rossia", medieval "Rosia" and sometimes "Rus" too.

Modern Russians are direct descendants (in cultural, political and historical sense) of ancient Russians or people of Rus, they've preserved this identity. While Belarusian and Ukrainian identity has shifted because of foreign European rule.

Though, all three identities are still very close to be called truly separate ethnicities. Strict boundaries between them are usually placed in the context of xenophobia, post-soviet politics and anti-russian bias. Those boundaries are of invented nature.

PS: For example, I identify myself as Russian, some of my grand-parents were from the Ukraine, they and their parents knew the Ukranian language and were native to the Ukranian culture, they identified themselves as Russians first and Ukranians second though.

[virus_128]

I figured out why Russians love H&H so much.

In H&H you start out with 4 loaves of bread and effectively some firewood, and hope to get something better.
In Russia you work all your life, and hope to get 4 loaves of bread and some firewood.

funny.... but it's rly true :\

[Dataslycer]

That means loftar owes me 5 riceballs!

[Potjeh]

Rus people (including those under foreign European rule) still indetified themselves as "Russkie" and thought of themselves as one nation, though separated (and that was perceived as a very tragic fact).

I doubt that common people cared much for borders, except when it meant that someone is coming to pillage their village. The concept of nation-states is a modern one.

[Canaris]

That may be true to a degree, Potjeh, but people since time immemorial have considered their surroundings their own.

[Potjeh]

What degree? Nation states were born in the 19th century. Before modern communications and transportation, everyone not from your village was a foreigner. Those who spoke your language and shared some of your customs were less foreign than those who didn't, but they were still not considered the same entity as the people from your village.

[al]

What degree? Nation states were born in the 19th century. Before modern communications and transportation, everyone not from your village was a foreigner. Those who spoke your language and shared some of your customs were less foreign than those who didn't, but they were still not considered the same entity as the people from your village.

That is a wrong interpretation of nation-states concept. And that is a wrong view on pre-modern societies.

As for effective state-level communication and transportation, it is not exclusive to our times and appeared in many ancient empires.

[Grelf]

What degree? Nation states were born in the 19th century. Before modern communications and transportation, everyone not from your village was a foreigner. Those who spoke your language and shared some of your customs were less foreign than those who didn't, but they were still not considered the same entity as the people from your village.

That is a wrong interpretation of nation-states concept. And that is a wrong view on pre-modern societies.

Err, no it is not. Politics and warfare were matters of the nobility back then, it did not concern the commoners at all, no matter how movies make it seem otherwise. They couldn't care less about who their lord was, or if his claims would increase in size or not, the only thing that they probably cared about concerning this was how heavily their lord was willing to tax them. There were no Nation-states before the 19th century, and especially when talking about Russia.

[al]

Err, no it is not. Politics and warfare were matters of the nobility back then, it did not concern the commoners at all, no matter how movies make it seem otherwise.

You say it as if it is different now.

They couldn't care less about who their lord was, or if his claims would increase in size or not, the only thing that they probably cared about concerning this was how heavily their lord was willing to tax them.

LoL. You totally ignore cultural and religious aspects, kin relations, etc, etc.

There were concepts of people, country, nation and even race long before XIX. And there are thousands examples of how people (as an ethnic group) were trying to unite themselves under one state or to remove foreign rule from their country, while initiative came from both nobility and commoners.

There were no Nation-states before the 19th century, and especially when talking about Russia.

Ja-ja, natürlich!