Really ticked off

[loftar]

Scenario one: Bears cant reach you, they dont attack you at all: they enrage and dont run.

This is what changed. Previously, you could sit around in a boat or inside a bear trap shooting away at the bear. The arrows do little enough damage that the bear can enrage without running away, and after that it does, obviously, not run away. Therefore, boats or bear traps were a sure way to kill them.

[warrri]

Indeed, okay.
But dont you see that scenario two is counter intuitive too? Why would someone enrage (BLARGAGAG YOU DIE NOW) and run away, that seems illogical, i dont know what it would be irl because i havent fought many bears with only a sword yet, but still. The only way to kill bears is to trap them at the river(annoying) so they cant run away or to hope that they bug at a tree and stop running away.

[Potjeh]

Apparently the latest update has turned bears into pacifists. I just spent five minutes petting a VII bear. That is, I stood in it's way and generally annoyed it, but it wouldn't attack me. It wasn't hurt, though, when I attacked and killed it I got the full LP.

[Haba]

Because this is really imbalancing

I, for one, thought it was really imbalancing that people could just sit around in boats pounding arrow after arrow in an animal that is too stupid to realize that it's going to die; especially so with the bears. The change I introduced is that animals that cannot find a way to hit back at their attacker will run away much faster. Fight them honestly, and they probably won't be running away.

Honestly, what do you think is the purpose of archery? You fire a shot at the critter, and in the time it takes to switch arms it has already vanished. Sure it is imbalancing for the poor animal, but at this point it hardly matters. It is not like anybody hunts for the thrill of it.

As for "mines and melee equipment", there shouldn't really be a large problem with taking on animals using leather armor and a stone axe (or your bare hands) -- that's how I fight them with my alt who does not have any mines or melee equipment.

I'd like to see a demonstration of you taking down an X level bear then.

Seriously, this change is more than a little imbalancing. Nobody grinds the bears for fun - we do it for survival. So far, having archery as secondary skill has allowed us to raise other skills -- now the only option is to raise melee skills. Tough luck for those who never invested in them, eh?

And more importantly, this totally removes the facade we're currently had - now there is absolutely no chance for low level players to catch up to top tier. Don't think that many people are going to grind 10 mil. LP from farming. Established players have grinded bears for months, they have their high level gear and thanes. Better to just submit to life of serfdom, eh?

Well no thanks. At least with the bear grind, we had the illusion that one day we could be strong enough to defend ourselves.

[warrri]

I can understand your frustration, but they already stated several times that they "dont want you to catch up with the older players, after all this is an alpha."
It's also amazing how little they care about what we think and want, also shown in the cavebulb nerf.

All we wanted: getting psy easier, maybe reducing stats of thanes and merchs so its a bit more balanced.
All we got: nerfed psy gain even further, because one player who was supported by a LARGE community grinded this stat.

All we wanted: bears not running away while we fight them "Legit"
All we got: bears still run away while fighting legit, and instead also run away while fighting them non legit and on a boat.

All we wanted: new cooking recipes for pumpkins(they really are useless atm), psy and dex stats
All we got: Fish with crappy fep even at hq, and a useless wardrobe

[Avu]

Can I add:
All we wanted: seedbags that make farming easier
All we got: 9 space things that cannot be shift clicked to the main inventory, cannot be used for crafting or grass planting

loftar why do you hate us so? Not everyone is blaze or a few other people that can one or two hit bears. Marksmanship was a good skill for hunting and it was a logical thing to be since it was completely crap for actual pvp compared to unarmed. You nerfed psy gain so people cannot get their own made thanes like all the veterans use to grind bears the manly way. Meh.

[loftar]

But dont you see that scenario two is counter intuitive too? Why would someone enrage (BLARGAGAG YOU DIE NOW) and run away

Indeed, that is a bug. It's just kinda hard to fix, because it is because of an interaction between two different parts of the AI system which are hard to integrate. It is one of the reasons that I want to build a better base for building AIs upon. You can make them not run away by taking a hit or two (e.g. using Bloodlust).

Apparently the latest update has turned bears into pacifists. I just spent five minutes petting a VII bear.

That isn't necessarily weird, though. Bears don't start to auto-aggro until, indeed, level 7, and even then they have a rather low chance of doing it, so that might potentially happen. In terms of aggression, a level 7 bear is like a level 3 boar or fox.

Honestly, what do you think is the purpose of archery?

The purpose of archery currently hardly even exists other than for exploiting bad AI. As I mentioned, archery should be remade completely.

I'd like to see a demonstration of you taking down an X level bear then.

Well, my little alt cannot fight level IV bears, but rest assured that there are many players who can fight level X bears, and many, not to say most, of them got there legitly. They did, after all, do it before boats even existed.

Seriously, this change is more than a little imbalancing. Nobody grinds the bears for fun - we do it for survival. So far, having archery as secondary skill has allowed us to raise other skills -- now the only option is to raise melee skills. Tough luck for those who never invested in them, eh?

What alternative do you suggest? Leaving the bad AI in and never improve on it, just so that new players can exploit it to try and reach high levels? Doing a character swipe every time we change some little balancing issue? I think there is a case to be made for avoiding those.

I can understand your frustration, but they already stated several times that they "dont want you to catch up with the older players, after all this is an alpha."

To be fair, it's not that we "don't want people to catch up". Rather, it's not as if we're going to go out of our way in order to make it possible. And since it is an alpha, rules are indeed going to change -- the only real alternative is to never change the game again. As for the cavebulb nerf, it may, in hindsight, have been a little harsh; but I'm not sure yet. PSY is supposed to be much harder to level than the other stats.

All we got: 9 space things that cannot be shift clicked to the main inventory, cannot be used for crafting or grass planting

Surely, you do not think that I consider them finished?

[kedrigh]

I, for one, thought it was really imbalancing that people could just sit around in boats pounding arrow after arrow in an animal that is too stupid to realize that it's going to die; especially so with the bears. The change I introduced is that animals that cannot find a way to hit back at their attacker will run away much faster. Fight them honestly, and they probably won't be running away.

meh.
make animals be able to swim, scale lp to risk taken, but don't go the stupid mmorpg design route of "let's punish players for playing smart and have stuff that cannot find a path run away incredibly fast". it's just stupid.

[warrri]

To be fair, it's not that we "don't want people to catch up". Rather, it's not as if we're going to go out of our way in order to make it possible. And since it is an alpha, rules are indeed going to change -- the only real alternative is to never change the game again. As for the cavebulb nerf, it may, in hindsight, have been a little harsh; but I'm not sure yet. PSY is supposed to be much harder to level than the other stats.

Psy WAS already hard to get. Harder than anyone might like it. I guess you based your opinion on Garin, who, as i said had the whole community behind him supporting him and feeding him cavebulbs. I also guess you looked up my stats, but also look up my time spent playing. It was not easy to get to this point. You made it even harder for me and Garin to raise psy, and near to impossible for the "casual" player who might just want to have his stats balanced or craft at least semi decent rings for his own.
I seriously cant see how you think getting psy was easy and almost DOUBLE the effort needed.

[loftar]

make animals be able to swim, scale lp to risk taken, but don't go the stupid mmorpg design route of "let's punish players for playing smart and have stuff that cannot find a path run away incredibly fast". it's just stupid.

Making them able to swim would be an order of magnitude harder, however, because Jorb would have to draw swimming animations for all the animals. Not to exclude that he'll never do that, but this AI decision is better anyway -- boats aside, you were able to shoot animals down from within a palisade or other enclosed space before, which was obviously just as ridiculous. Animals should run away if that happens to them.

I guess you based your opinion on Garin

I actually didn't even know that there was a player called Garin. ;) I just looked at the cavebulbs and noticed them giving 10 undiluted FEPs at q10, which seemed very much. As I said, though, it may indeed have been overly harsh. I would very much appreciate it if people stopped viewing the current version of the game as the last and final.