"Seal"

[DatOneGuy]

the wiki is so inaccurate it is unbelievable, i hardly take anything as word on there, especially the fishing pages. but i just assumed, and i assumed wrong, guess its true what they say about assumption then.

Well, hopefully it'll get fixed a bit.

The wiki's fishing page isn't too bad actually. Check the "Category:Fish" page.

The problem is that it lacks organization, so you won't see the "Category:Fish" page as a noob unless you use wikis often and look to see all fish from a single fish's page, so all you'd really see is the list on the "Fishing" page, which is also pretty inaccurate.

I've been attempting to test all the fishing claims as far as time of day, etc.

It takes quite some time though, so heh.

You're best off joining IRC SynIRC: #haven

You'll get a lot of information there, although to be honest, not all of it will be true either, I've gotten a few contradicting statements. Your best bet is to try stuff out, but look for people who have played longer, since they tend to know firsthand.

[Granger]

It is there to prevent someone else from expanding on your palisade to, for example, block the entrance to it. I agree that the situation is far from optimal, but I'm not sure I can think of a better solution.

What about making the normal cliffs like the on in the mountain?
They seem to work as expected.

[Zamte]

Cliffs ought to, like pretty much everything else, conform to normal tiles. If they did, there would be no more wall woes, no more building issues, no more having to move because cliffs are generated every three bloody feet and you need a four foot space for your plot.

As for walls, what about making it so the first gate built on the wall is designated the "main" gate, and it's key can then be used to seal and unseal cornerposts? Since a gateless wall isn't intended to be passed through anyways, it couldn't be used to seal anybody in, so I don't see the requirement of a gate causing any issues with this.

[Gerrado]

finished my palisade after about 3 days work, wouldve been 2 if it wasnt for the retarded cliffs

[Granger]

Cliffs ought to, like pretty much everything else, conform to normal tiles. If they did, there would be no more wall woes, no more building issues, no more having to move because cliffs are generated every three bloody feet and you need a four foot space for your plot.

So you want collision being removed for them? And people being able to place a mansion straight through a cliff?

As for walls, what about making it so the first gate built on the wall is designated the "main" gate, and it's key can then be used to seal and unseal cornerposts? Since a gateless wall isn't intended to be passed through anyways, it couldn't be used to seal anybody in, so I don't see the requirement of a gate causing any issues with this.

That's something to think about. From a technical standpoint it would make sense to let the key of a gate control the extendability of the two cornerposts it's held by. Cornerposts without a gate should be sealable as-is.

[Omniwar0801]

Cliffs ought to, like pretty much everything else, conform to normal tiles. If they did, there would be no more wall woes, no more building issues, no more having to move because cliffs are generated every three bloody feet and you need a four foot space for your plot.

So you want collision being removed for them? And people being able to place a mansion straight through a cliff?

what are you talking about man Look when you are trying to pave in an area where there is Desert terrain you can only pave the area that is either grassland or really anyother type of terrain other than desert. But when you plow in the square right next to the desert tile they "conform" to one another. or when you plant grass around a paved area. it doesnt just become a Block of grass it "conforms" to the area around it.

I dont think he was asking to be able to build right through the cliff and i hope you knew this and was just trying to be a smart ass and putting the guy down.

Next time dont be an ass

[Zamte]

What I mean by conform to normal tiles is... A cliff tile takes up a specific space. Make that space the same as a normal tile. IE, make cliffs one tile across, and however long they want to be. If they were the same size as any other tile then there would not be any issues placing anything you wanted next to them. By doing so, people could use cliffs as natural walls, place walls next to them, or even extend walls from them, without having to worry about gaps or shift place them off the grid and then have to worry about the other side not matching up.

As for the cornerposts, I mean all cornerposts attached to that wall. The problem is you have two issues. You don't allow them to be sealed and griefing assholes come and build the walls out and seal you in. You let them be sealed and griefing assholes come find unfinished walls and seal the cornerposts so the person has to build a ram and tear them down. Neither is exactly favorable. If a given wall's first gate's key would allow all cornerposts in it to be "locked" and unlocked at will, then the player could seal when they're doing building, unseal later if they choose to expand, and have the freedom to control their own walls, as they should be able to.

[keyn_thror]

If a given wall's first gate's key would allow all cornerposts in it to be "locked" and unlocked at will, then the player could seal when they're doing building, unseal later if they choose to expand, and have the freedom to control their own walls, as they should be able to.

The problem is that there are no "your own walls", there are just "walls".

Any section of a wall is a separate world object, not connected to any other world object anyhow.
Even gates. Try to destroy both gate cornerposts, and you will see a gate still operational and it will stay that way until it breaks.

What would you do, if you have built a wall with a gate, gate key gives you control over all wall cornerposts, and then you decide that you made a mistake, break the wall and start building it further from the separate piece, which doesn't have connection to the first gate?
What if you build a new gate there, and then connect it back to the original wall?
What if you loop that separate part of a wall and build a new gate, that doesn't connect to the first gate anyhow?

Would it be the "same" wall or a "new" wall?

What if you find "someone's" unfinished big nice wall with a gate, that you don't have key for, and decide to break the gate and build your own one?
Will your new key work with old cornerposts?

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Creation of such complex game mechanics is very difficult and in general is not reasonable for such small purpose like anti-wall-griefing.
Just keep in mind, that EVERYBODY can build EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE (sometimes it requires Vandalism skills, but still they can), and you have to be ready to counter that.

If you're afraid to be sealed, keep resources enough to build a battering ram INSIDE your walls.
Make friends with some people living around, who can help you, if you get trapped.

And if you ever need to expand your walls - just don't be greedy and build a new cornerpost, that's not so high price for safety...

[Zamte]

I'm aware of what would be required. The point was that it'd be less work to do this (Make parts of a wall which were built off of each other count as a grouped object and allow them all to be keyed the same) than to make the wall be owned by the person who built it to identify them so that they can control it. Adding a serial-like value to a wall when it is built and giving the same ID to any other wall piece built off of it or connected to it so as to group them wouldn't be that difficult, and would facilitate this and eventually likely other changes which would make use of it.

Your example unfortunately is faulty. If I decide I need to break my gate down because I lost the key, and build a new one, then that's my fault for not keeping a hold of my keys. If I did not lose my key, and I decide to build a new gate for some reason, then I still have the key to use on the cornerposts. Jorb and Loftar have said that they are tired of having to "degrief" people from this crap. You're not supposed to be walling people into their own property, as it does not help you steal anything, kill anybody, or anything of any sort, it only allows you to ruin another person's fun. This is griefing at it's purest, as there is no gain at all, and in fact a loss (the time and materials to build the extended wall sections). The time spent adding the ability to somehow put it under the control of the builder/owner of the wall would be a lot less in the long run than repeatedly saving people and punishing their captors.

It's a rough idea that I came up with in response to the statement. It's not something I've fleshed out or perfected. The obvious solution is to somehow control who can and cannot build on the walls. My idea is to use the key to identify the owner, as is already done for opening and closing the gates.

An alterative would be to use the same idea, but rather than automatically grouping the objects, you could simply take any key you like and pick it up and right click the cornerpost to get a "bind to key" option, which would make the key now seal and unseal that cornerpost. Then it could use the existing gate mechanic for identifying gates to keys.

[keyn_thror]

An alterative would be to use the same idea, but rather than automatically grouping the objects, you could simply take any key you like and pick it up and right click the cornerpost to get a "bind to key" option, which would make the key now seal and unseal that cornerpost. Then it could use the existing gate mechanic for identifying gates to keys.

That looks like a much more realistic idea, and it can be implemented easily, I suppose.

Grouping all kinds of walls objects (which are very numerous in the world) and binding them to the key or owner means adding at least two new parameters to these objects templates and in the world's objects database, which results in a significally increased size of a database and increased load on it.

Binding only cornerposts objects (which are far less numerous, than wall sections) to keys means adding only one parameter to one template and the database, which is much better than previous scenario.

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There's no reason to limit walls functionality to it's "owners", this isn't very realistic, and will not add much to the current gameplay.

As a solution against a wall-griefing (if that's a main goal of this game mechanics) I would recommend just to save a wall builder character's name in a variable, and then posting in game rules, that such kind of griefing is a serious (even bannable?) offense.

Anyone who uses walls to block other people, will be easily tracked by game masters, and then they can ban his account or apply some other kind of punishment of their choice.

Back in the old days, in Ultima Online there was a rule, that blocking any world passage (like town gates, cave exits, mountain passes, bridges, doors etc.) is considered a griefing, and is a bannable offense. Such kind of griefing was very rare because everyone knew, that if they do so - they will be quickly found and punished by Game Masters.