Guide to surviving the Hearthlands

[bmjclark]

I find it very unsurprising that you think bug abuse is an acceptable way to pay someone back given your history.

[burgingham]

You misunderstood me then. Probably on purpose.


I am just saying I see nothing new here. This is the game, has been for a long time already. Why make a fuss about it only once you get attacked?

[bmjclark]

Ah i did misunderstand. I'm not even making a fuss about it honestly. It's a bit annoying, but meh. I haven't been playing actively anyways. There haven't been bug rams going until yesterday when portgas and co raided 2 towns with bug rams, and 2 more today.

[ramones]

Any news from The Devs about "returning" or at least fixing some shit?

[Shiro_kun]

Ah i did misunderstand. I'm not even making a fuss about it honestly. It's a bit annoying, but meh. I haven't been playing actively anyways. There haven't been bug rams going until yesterday when portgas and co raided 2 towns with bug rams, and 2 more today.

Wtf is Portgas&co? U guys using it when you need to blame me lol, did u even saw me at purg raid or smth? Or got scents in my vault from it?

[bmjclark]

I used it to refer to winterfell and all their little friends. But fine, winterfell and co*****

[painhertz]

Any news from The Devs about "returning" or at least fixing some shit?

We got some not very promising statements from loftar off of irc, not to say that they aren't gonna work on the game again but he wasn't exactly comping at the bit to either. Also got the feeling that he sort of considers "Salem" his baby now. Will try to get quotes and add in here today.

(18:26:25) <Alg> whats up with the sudden server instability loftar?
(18:27:18) <RJT> ^
(18:29:15) <loftar> Someone seems to be enjoying finding a couple of new crash bugs. ^^
(18:29:22) <loftar> Don't worry though; I'm fixing them.
(18:30:03) <Tonky> Oo
(18:30:33) <Rawrz> its ruining alg
(18:30:36) <Rawrz> alg's raids
(18:30:51) <Tonky> viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29050
(18:30:55) <Alg> no
(18:31:04) <Alg> the 6 hour downtime yesterday ruined my raid
(18:31:10) <DDDsDD999> hi tonky
(18:31:10) <Alg> this one is ruining my foraging
(18:31:12) <Alg>
(18:31:18) <Tonky> yo ziggy
(18:31:27) <Alg> ok, I take that back
(18:31:28) <Alg> <3 loftar
(18:31:36) <Alg> just logged in surrounded by what I was foraging for
(18:32:32) <Tonky> so there are still crash bugs
(18:32:48) <Alg> yes
(18:32:59) <Alg> there are some wall jumps too
(18:33:11) <Tonky> sounds like fun
(18:33:57) <Oddity> loftar, when exactly did you begin working on Salem?
(18:34:02) <Oddity> Inquiring minds want to know
(18:34:11) <loftar> October 2010. Why?
(18:34:28) <DDDsDD999> Inquiring minds wanted to know
(18:34:28) <Tonky> oh wow
(18:34:42) <Alg> loftar, when will you make statues rammable?
(18:34:43) <Alg>
(18:34:55) <Tonky> so, just around when you stopped updating haven
(18:35:06) <Tonky> after that smith update
(18:35:07) <DDDsDD999> Better: Make it so you can walk through them.
(18:35:08) <loftar> Well, yeah, that wasn't a coincidence.
(18:35:18) <Tonky> i see
(18:35:30) <Oddity> Just wondering how well W3 development stopping correlated with Salem development starting
(18:35:45) <Oddity> I went through the Announcement board and arranged every update/development thread in chronological order
(18:35:57) <Alg> rammable statues!
(18:35:58) <DDDsDD999> Pretty hard minus that christmas update with sledgehammers.
(18:36:04) <DDDsDD999> No algyturlte.
(18:36:08) <DDDsDD999> It cannot happen.
(18:36:36) <Tonky> kinda strange though that you cannot ram a statue while you can ram walls
(18:36:42) <Alg> and banners
(18:36:44) <Oddity> Looks like W3 updates actually slowed down in July 2010
(18:36:44) <Alg> you can ram banners too
(18:36:48) <Alg> and crossroads
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(18:36:52) <Oddity> hi
(18:36:54) <DDDsDD999> Pretty sure you can't ram banners.
(18:36:55) <Alg> statues are the only unrammable objects
(18:36:58) <Tonky> how could revolutionalists break down political leaders statues
(18:37:10) <ewlol> hELllLLOO EveryYonEE
(18:37:14) <Alg> it just makes no sense to keep them unrammable
(18:37:18) <Alg> with the blant abuse
(18:37:18) <Tonky> hi ewlol
(18:37:32) <DDDsDD999> hi lake
(18:37:50) <ewlol> WhatTTS UPP YO digiTydAWgS
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(18:38:25) <Tonky> that gives me a good headache
(18:38:59) <Tonky> oh loftar, have you actually managed to check tari-tari yet?
(18:39:09) <RJT> hi
(18:39:19) <loftar> Ah, yes, I picked it up along with a couple of other current series, Tonky.
(18:39:38) <Tonky> thats good, what about other current series?
(18:39:41) <DDDsDD999> Tari-tari?
(18:39:48) <Tonky> new anime, ziggy
(18:40:00) <DDDsDD999> Ah.
(18:40:05) <DDDsDD999> Is it good?
(18:40:12) <Tonky> i like it so far
(18:40:16) <Rawrz> download it with your dial up and find out
(18:40:31) <DDDsDD999> Rawrz, y u no gib jars of internet? ;_;
(18:40:42) <Rawrz> =o
(18:40:57) <loftar> Of series currently airing, I'm following Hyouka, Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita, Natsuyuki Rendezvous, Saki, Tari-tari and Uchuu Kyoudai.
(18:41:17) <loftar> Oh, sorry, and Accel World, Kokoro Connect and Yuruyuri.
(18:41:19) <Tonky> gee
(18:41:33) <Tonky> how do you do those all checking?
(18:41:37) <Tonky> i cant lol
(18:41:46) <loftar> Hm? "Checking"?
(18:41:56) <loftar> Not sure how to parse that sentence.
(18:42:13) <Tonky> well you checking them meaning you watching them, right?
(18:42:34) <loftar> Hmm, I wouldn't normally interpret it that way.
(18:42:43) <loftar> If anything, I'd interpret it as evaluating them.
(18:42:50) <Tonky> just bookmarking?
(18:43:26) <Tonky> well, sorry you said "following"
(18:43:41) <loftar> Yes, as in watching them.
(18:43:50) <Tonky> "checking them out" is what i meant
(18:44:16) <Tonky> do they air in sweden or inernet thing_
(18:44:34) <DDDsDD999> With all these animes I don't see how you could fit all your haircuts into your schedule loftar. :O
(18:44:46) <Tonky> ^
(18:44:49) <Rawrz> hah
(18:44:50) <loftar> Nah, Internet thing. Far from airing, I doubt I could even get my hands on them other than by downloading them.
(18:44:59) <loftar> Haircuts? Wut?
(18:45:17) <DDDsDD999> We know jorb took all your hair cremes
(18:45:35) <loftar> I actually wrote an automatic downloader long ago, Tonky. It gets me series with little to no manual intervention.
(18:45:41) <Rawrz> only decent channel that aired constant anime here got cut out of the package
(18:45:48) <Tonky> oh wow, which one is your favoite so far?
(18:45:52) <Oddity> loftar, what did you write it in?
(18:45:54) <ewlol> ANIME is FOR NERZ
(18:45:56) <ewlol> NERDZ
(18:46:05) <Tonky> ewlol, you cant be a nerd
(18:46:07) <Oddity> Stop impersonating dear old Lake
(18:46:24) <ewlol> IM DEF. NOT A NERD
(18:46:34) <loftar> Um, the basic client is written in C, the automatic downloader itself in Scheme, and the manager for coordinating downloads of various series is a shellscript, Oddity.
(18:46:41) <Oddity> ok
(18:46:59) <loftar> http://www.dolda2000.com/~fredrik/doldaconnect/
(18:47:19) <Tonky> client written in C that downloads every airing new anime... you could start a business there too
(18:47:42) <ewlol> guys have you seen this really cool mmo
(18:47:43) <ewlol> http://origin-world.com/
(18:47:43) <loftar> I think Hyouka is my favorite currently, but Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita might turn out to be a worthy contender.
(18:47:49) <ewlol> its so cool and dandy and neat
(18:47:53) <loftar> I only picked it up recently, so I haven't watched more than one episode.
(18:48:39) <Tonky> 人類は衰退しました？
(18:48:55) <loftar> Precisely.
(18:49:14) <Tonky> I didnt even know such title existed and now googled to find many pages
(18:50:39) <ewlol> http://puu.sh/YRgU
(18:50:39) <ewlol>
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(18:51:27) <loftar> Tonky, http://djsjr.com/wp-content/uploads/201 ... regate.png
(18:52:00) <loftar> And yes, ewlol, I've seen it.
(18:52:10) <Tonky> Oh wow
(18:52:34) <Oddity> When will H&H development resume at pre-July-2010 pace?
(18:52:46) <Tonky> Tari-tari is the only one with no explanation
(18:52:52) <DDDsDD999> 2016
(18:52:52) <Alg> the hell
(18:52:57) <ewlol> when salem gets a multi-person development team
(18:52:59) <DDDsDD999> Mark your calenders
(18:53:12) <ewlol> but the world is ending on 12/21/2012 so
(18:53:13) <Yasso> 2016 xD
(18:53:15) <loftar> That's a good question, Oddity.
(18:53:23) <Alg> it wasn't letting me take a 10% tw cr
(18:53:27) <Alg>
(18:53:29) <loftar> I mean, for one thing, even when I can work more actively on it, there's a lot of rewriting to do.
(18:53:38) <Yasso> so it will take a while
(18:53:39) <Yasso> anyway
(18:53:53) <Tonky> what about 12/21/2012_?
(18:54:17) <ewlol> loftar if you just release one new drawn curiosity i swear to go people will go bananas and will praise you like jesus lord almighty
(18:54:22) <DDDsDD999> Jesus plans to kill the world on 12/21/2012
(18:54:28) <DDDsDD999> Mark your calenders.
(18:54:36) <ewlol> i think you might see an average of like 1000 players online
(18:54:37) <Tonky> who said that?
(18:54:52) <ewlol> jesus told america
(18:55:05) <Oddity> ewlol please stop impersonating Lake Lagaoi
(18:55:06) <ewlol> that he is planning to destroy the world on 12/21/2012
(18:55:25) <Oddity> loftar can you tell us more
(18:55:28) <Oddity> Give us some ballparks etc.
(18:55:35) <ewlol> Oddity I ruv you :3
(18:55:40) <Tonky> ballparks?Oo
(18:55:52) <ewlol> ballparks = ballpark estimate
(18:55:55) <loftar> More about what? The precise schedule for Haven development?
(18:56:00) * Chakravanti has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
(18:56:07) <loftar> If so, there is none, just as how there isn't really one for Salem development either.
(18:56:09) * Democrat has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
(18:56:12) <Alg> I still think you should consider a W7
(18:56:19) <Yasso> i dont think there is anything planned development wise
(18:56:36) <ewlol> i think you should consider changing something about clients so that custom clients dont work
(18:56:41) <ewlol> just a THOUGHT
(18:56:45) <loftar> You funny, ewlol.
(18:56:45) <DDDsDD999> Salem development:
(18:56:51) <DDDsDD999> 1. Multi-servers
(18:56:52) <DDDsDD999> 2. Witches
(18:56:58) <DDDsDD999> Fin~
(18:57:14) <ewlol> lol it's funny how custom clients have become your own worst enemy
(18:57:17) <ewlol> but OH WELL
(18:57:37) <loftar> It's funny how I never viewed custom clients as my worst enemy. ^^
(18:57:45) <Alg> I'm actually interested
(18:57:54) <ewlol> what's your opinion then
(18:57:55) <Alg> in seeing how many people are actually playing by IP
(18:58:00) <Oddity> loftar, can you guess how much H&H writing there will be before we see "We've been developing tonight and here's what's new." a few times a month again?
(18:58:02) <Alg> instead of the number of accounts logged in
(18:58:02) <Tonky> what is your worst enemy, loftar?
(18:58:13) <DDDsDD999> 500x500 H&H client screens were everyone's worst enemy
(18:58:23) <ewlol> ok so spend the time making a resiable window
(18:58:25) <DDDsDD999> Tonky: Maple leaves
(18:58:28) <loftar> Last I calculated the different, Alg, I came to the conclusion that about 5% of logged-in accounts were alts playing on the same IP address.
(18:58:39) <Alg> how long ago was that?
(18:58:41) <ewlol> i swear if that would have been fixed we wouldn't see this abomination of client anymore
(18:59:02) <Tonky> lol ziggy
(18:59:14) <Rawrz> who cares if the default can be resized
(18:59:18) <loftar> I don't quite remember. Perhaps 1 - 1.5 years ago, or so.
(18:59:22) <Alg> yea
(18:59:22) <Rawrz> most dont use it now =p
(18:59:26) <Alg> I would try a more recent one loftar
(18:59:40) <Alg> thats about the time when people started botting more frequently
(18:59:41) <Oddity> loftar, can you guess how much H&H writing there will be before we see "We've been developing tonight and here's what's new." a few times a month again?
(18:59:52) <DDDsDD999> Only maschoists use vanilla.
(19:00:05) <Tonky> ok im a mazo
(19:00:08) <ewlol> vanilla is good in ice cream and cookies
(19:00:13) <loftar> I could guess, Oddity, but I'd dead wrong anyway, so I won't try.
(19:00:15) <Yasso> very
(19:00:26) <loftar> I'd be* dead wrong
(19:00:27) <ewlol> loftar, do you ever plan to work on HNH again
(19:00:32) <Oddity> boo urns
(19:00:48) <Tonky> urns???
(19:00:51) <ewlol> do you think that salem will occupy much of your time after it has been released
(19:00:55) <Alg> simpsons reference tonky
(19:01:02) <loftar> I certainly do, ewlol, but it should be said that it might not be Haven as you know it now.
(19:01:08) <Oddity> loftar does a fire in your belly still burn with passion for H&H, the way it did back in 2009 when you were churning out developments every 4-6 days on average?
(19:01:08) <Tonky> ah i havent watched simpsons for ages
(19:01:17) <ewlol> how much development must happen after salem is released
(19:01:22) <Rawrz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWmAez71uMY
(19:01:35) <ewlol> see here is what boggles my mind. how do you ever plan to work on HNH again once salem is released? i mean, MMOs are continuous
(19:01:46) <ewlol> they require continuous development
(19:01:55) <loftar> Of course not in the same way, since I haven't worked on it actively for so long, but I do earnestly long to be able to work on Haven again.
(19:02:14) <ewlol> so how, with you being the primary (or only?) developer, could you ever develop haven again?
(19:02:32) <Tonky> ty, rawrz
(19:02:42) <ewlol> so it is true that Salem has become your focus?
(19:02:48) <loftar> Well, that's a question to which I don't have all the answers myself.
(19:03:01) <ewlol> that much of the time you will spend developing anything will be in regards to Salem?
(19:03:12) <loftar> However, it is clear that Salem won't always require as much constant attention as it does now.
(19:03:24) <Alg> oh, it will
(19:03:30) <ewlol> are you the only developer for Salem?
(19:03:46) <loftar> I have taught Jorb to do minor stuff like adding simple items.
(19:03:53) <DDDsDD999> Jorb is the "idea-man"
(19:03:57) <Oddity> and to wag his tail on command?
(19:04:02) <ewlol> that didn't answer the question
(19:04:10) <loftar> It doesn't?
(19:04:18) <ewlol> are you the only developer for Salem?
(19:04:21) <Tonky> will jorb be the code-gnome while you work on major codes? :p
(19:04:22) <loftar> It clearly means Jorb is also developing it without my intervention.
(19:04:30) <loftar> Thus, clearly I'm not the only developer.
(19:04:32) <ewlol> ok here is a better question
(19:04:37) <ewlol> what percentage of the code
(19:04:42) <ewlol> have you written for salem
(19:04:49) <ewlol> rough estimate
(19:04:53) <loftar> Oh, the vast majority, obviously.
(19:05:08) <Tonky> who is responsible with maple leaves then, loftar?
(19:05:15) <loftar> That would be me, Tonky.
(19:05:30) <ewlol> does Paradox ever plan to hire a team
(19:05:33) <Tonky> ok, then what is it that you dont want players to have more than 2 leaves?
(19:05:41) <Tonky> per tree, i mean
(19:05:42) <loftar> What Jorb can do is what would probably be termed "scripting" in other games.
(19:05:48) <ewlol> of people to code and plan Salem
(19:06:04) <loftar> I don't think we'll let them "plan" Salem.
(19:06:10) <Tonky> paradox can plan always but im guessing loftar didnt like it
(19:06:17) <Tonky> ah, see, im right lol
(19:06:20) <Tonky> (this time)
(19:06:21) <loftar> Whether we become able to hire others to work on it obviously depends on how well it goes.
(19:06:34) <ewlol> so it is true that once salem is released you and Jorb will probably be the sole developers
(19:06:41) <ewlol> just as you were with haven and hearth
(19:06:43) <Oddity> I don't know how to feel "that it might not be Haven as you know it now"
(19:06:56) <loftar> If Salem makes enough money, we'll certainly hire people to do the bulk work on it.
(19:06:58) <ewlol> but that you will be making money off of it?
(19:07:04) <DDDsDD999> Sexually excited oddity.
(19:07:07) <DDDsDD999> Sexually excited.
(19:07:28) <Tonky> how much is enough here?
(19:07:44) <loftar> Well, enough to pay whatever salaries are needed.
(19:07:58) <Tonky> youre already feeding one mouth :p
(19:07:59) <ewlol> i really just don't understand how it is going to be possible to devote substantial time to Haven and Hearth when you have a money-making project at the forefront
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(19:08:53) <ewlol> which might even be your primary source of income, but I'm not going to assume anything regarding that
(19:09:05) <loftar> Well, our plan is to develop Salem to a point where it will be mostly in need of content updates. Depending on what those are, then, they may not have to require *too* much
time.
(19:09:30) <Tonky> what other things youve been doing except for content updates now?
(19:09:37) <loftar> I mean, it's not my dream plan of life either way to just sit and update Salem forever. Obviously we'll have to plan for moving on in one way or another, whether that be
Haven or not.
(19:09:59) <ewlol> aren't you just adding more and more content to salem now?
(19:10:02) <DDDsDD999> loftars day will one day be 1/8 salem, 1/8 Anime, 1/4 H&H and the rest haircuts.
(19:10:04) <DDDsDD999> In 2016 ofc
(19:10:13) <Tonky> lol
(19:10:16) <loftar> Well, the multi-server thing is the major thing right now, but as you may have noticed, I also improved the audio system the other day, Tonky.
(19:10:19) <Zou> more haircuts please
(19:10:31) <Yasso> loftar i have no audio at all in salem since the update -.-
(19:10:38) <Tonky> isnt the audio thing another content?
(19:10:43) <Zou> are your speakers plugged in
(19:10:46) <loftar> ... What is this about haircuts? Have I said something odd recently?
(19:10:49) <DDDsDD999> Yasso, are you using BDSM?
(19:10:54) <Yasso> yeahh
(19:10:54) <Yasso> Bd
(19:10:55) <Yasso> s
(19:11:04) <DDDsDD999> I've noticed that too.
(19:11:05) <Zou> you guys love saying bdsm
(19:11:07) <Zou> dont you
(19:11:09) <DDDsDD999> Not in enders though.
(19:11:09) <loftar> Nah, the audio thing doesn't involve any new content yet at all, Tonky. It's a better audio system to be able to develop content in.
(19:11:13) <Tonky> idk but this haircut thing has been going on for quite a while, loftar
(19:11:14) <Yasso> yes i do zou, yes i do
(19:11:14) <ewlol> a more random question, when you were developing for Haven and Hearth in 2010, how long did it take you to write code for, say, the mining system
(19:11:24) <Tonky> ah i see
(19:11:31) <ewlol> or the iron processing system with random quality-ups and blooms, etc
(19:11:36) <DDDsDD999> Apparently the farther away from a source of sound, the quieter the sound is.
(19:11:37) <Tonky> so later you can just add in sounds to your audio system?
(19:11:46) <loftar> What mining system, ewlol? There have been many incremental updates to it.
(19:12:00) <ewlol> what about updates like when you added wagons
(19:12:11) <ewlol> how long would you spend coding that, just the wagons
(19:12:13) <Oddity> How about when you added new content and stuff on an almost weekly basis?
(19:12:19) <ewlol> the move, attach and animal, build, etc
(19:12:20) <Oddity> I wish to see the return of those days
(19:12:22) <loftar> More importantly, DDDsDD999, the system actually has a conception now of the sound being played on an object, rather than "just being played", and it can also play ambient
sounds.
(19:12:29) <loftar> Probably a night, ewlol.
(19:12:39) <loftar> But you know, I find it hard to classify my time like that.
(19:12:52) <ewlol> so you probably spent 6 or so hours coding that?
(19:12:56) <Alg> ah
(19:13:12) <Alg> are haven minimaps now back to updating themselves regularly?
(19:13:17) <loftar> I constantly think about the state of the code, and I can't really make a clear distinction of when I'm working on it and when I'm not.
(19:13:35) <ewlol> so as each week progressed you probably spent about 2 nights a week on each update
(19:13:39) <ewlol> 2-3?
(19:13:40) <DDDsDD999> (He plans his coding while getting haircuts)
(19:13:47) <loftar> Jorb might have mentioned it 2 months earlier and I might've had the structure clear in my mind and what not.
(19:14:13) <loftar> I spent a lot of time outside that cleaning up the code, rewriting systems, pondering the architecture, &c&c&c
(19:14:23) <Zou> getting haircuts
(19:14:23) <ewlol> i just want a clear idea of how much went into adding in content in HnH
(19:14:29) <loftar> I've never heard this haircut thing previously, though. ^^
(19:14:45) <Zou> Have you gotten a haircut recently?
(19:14:49) <loftar> I'm not sure I can transmit a clear idea of it, ewlol, because I don't really have one myself.
(19:14:56) <loftar> I have actually. Just the other day.
(19:15:02) <Oddity> loftar, so when you say "that it might not be Haven as you know it now" what exactly is going to change?
(19:15:03) <DDDsDD999> I KNEW IT
(19:15:07) <Yasso> its all true then
(19:15:21) <Zou> pls remove combat from haven
(19:15:24) <Zou> and replace it with ponies
(19:15:41) <DDDsDD999> And 50% of all players die every 2 weeks.
(19:15:49) <DDDsDD999> For no reason.
(19:15:53) <loftar> Well, it's not as if we have a ready-made plan, Oddity.
(19:15:56) <Zou> 10% of dying when moving is better
(19:16:09) <Yasso> oddi i dont think he knows exactly whats gonna be changed
(19:16:20) <loftar> But seeing how detached we have become from the current state of Haven, we usually consider it more from a blank-slate state when we talk about it.
(19:16:24) <Zou> development is tuff work guys
(19:16:25) <ewlol> have you worked on something very significant behind-the-scenes since the curiosity system
(19:16:27) <DDDsDD999> Oddity: There will be witches.
(19:16:30) <DDDsDD999> That is all.
(19:16:42) <ewlol> i'm talking about content and not recoding
(19:17:00) <ewlol> not re-organizing and re-structuring code
(19:17:09) <loftar> Well, for reference, ewlol, the vast majority of the stuff the Announcement posts announce were written in one night.
(19:17:24) <Tonky> could it be in IRC or one of your salem vids that jorb talked about you being busy for haircut, loftar
(19:17:47) <Alg> Na
(19:17:50) <DDDsDD999> Pretty sure it's older than salem videos.
(19:17:55) <Alg> They're just mocking the way his hair looked from the salem videos
(19:17:56) <Alg> lol
(19:17:57) <DDDsDD999> I forget exactly what though.
(19:18:11) <Zou> oh yeah there was that witchcraft video
(19:18:13) <Zou> that he was late for
(19:18:16) <loftar> Ah, well, I've seen, in passing, people discussing me being late for the witchcraft video for a haircut.
(19:18:20) <loftar> But that's actually not true.
(19:18:24) <loftar> I was stuck in traffic for that.
(19:18:32) <Tonky> lol
(19:18:36) <Zou> But were you getting a haircut before that?
(19:18:43) <DDDsDD999> So jorb is a liar?
(19:18:45) <loftar> I was, but that was several hours in advance.
(19:18:51) <DDDsDD999> And you must eat his heart?
(19:18:58) <DDDsDD999> To gain all the hair creme his hair has absorbed?
(19:18:59) <loftar> I eat his heart anyway.
(19:19:03) <Tonky> its more fancy to say youre late for the video shooting for haircut than being in traffic
(19:20:08) <Zou> loftar: have you ever considered an afro
(19:20:28) <ewlol> loftar have you ever taken into consideration ideas proposed on the forums
(19:20:38) <loftar> Ummm.
(19:20:44) <loftar> Sometimes we read them.
(19:20:48) <Alg> Loftar, why can't you just do a few minor quality of life changes in haven for the meantime
(19:20:49) <ewlol> so you read them
(19:20:51) <Alg> nothing big
(19:20:57) <Zou> alg give up!
(19:21:00) <DDDsDD999> Better question:
(19:21:09) <DDDsDD999> Have you taken any suggestion seriously since 2010
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(19:21:22) <ewlol> but do you ever really think... "oh wow, thats interesting. I wonder what that would look like added to the game...""
(19:21:23) <Zou> Babies suggestion was the best one
(19:21:25) <loftar> Rarely, they might have some interesting idea contained within themselves, but when that happens, we try to consider what the core of that idea is, and then implement a
system of our liking around it instead of what was suggested on the forums.
(19:21:40) <loftar> The only concrete idea we've taken from the forums is the creamy cock.
(19:21:41) <Oddity> Will you ever remove movement combat?
(19:21:48) <Tonky> so maple leaves ;_;
(19:21:49) <DDDsDD999> That's usually what I think happens.
(19:21:52) <ewlol> So in essence you try to do nothing that has been proposed on the forums
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(19:21:57) <DDDsDD999> Also yes, maple leaves ;_;
(19:21:58) <ewlol> Purposefully, too
(19:22:00) <Zou> HI COLES
(19:22:05) <ewlol> Why even have the section, then?
(19:22:09) <Coles> Hey
(19:22:14) <Zou> for the shitposts
(19:22:17) <ewlol> Cream Cock wasn't even stated in Critique and Ideas, wither
(19:22:23) <Tonky> to lock all the ideas up, ewlol
(19:22:25) <Coles> Bought time I took the time to get into this..
(19:22:30) <Coles> about*
(19:22:41) <Oddity> hi
(19:22:47) <ewlol> It seems like if an idea is proposed you think "oh surely we can't do that now, since we didn't originally come up with it"
(19:22:48) <Coles> Nah lol, shitposting is a forum hobby
(19:22:49) <Zou> Coles I heard you were bad at haven
(19:22:50) <Tonky> so ppl dont post elsewhere
(19:22:51) <Oddity> Jordan Coles has joined the Great IRC Community
(19:22:54) <loftar> Well, like I said, at rare times there are actually ideas that contain something interesting within themselves.
(19:23:12) <ewlol> Why do you have that section of the forum?
(19:23:25) <Zou> for Critique and Ideas, perhaps?
(19:23:26) <ewlol> I honestly think you should delete it if it is of no use to you
(19:23:38) <Oddity> loftar, how does this anime make you feel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Zcs1SHVbz0
(19:23:51) <ewlol> It only gives us an illusion of you considering our input but you really arent
(19:23:53) <Tonky> ewlol, they do read sometimes
(19:24:06) <ewlol> Reading means nothing when the ideas aren't really values
(19:24:25) <loftar> <loftar> Well, like I said, at rare times there are actually ideas that contain something interesting within themselves.
(19:24:26) <Tonky> but arent almost all developers like that?
(19:24:27) <Coles> Loftar I have a question regarding bugs, I've sent you and jorb bug reports a few times since I've been playing (legitimate ones) and they either haven't been read or were
read and dismissed
(19:24:32) <loftar> Isn't that enough answer for you, ewlol?
(19:24:59) <Coles> Do you store them at least?
(19:25:02) <ewlol> Why bother, I suppose since you deem most ideas unworthy
(19:25:15) <ewlol> I mean, very simple and intuitive ideas like larger ovens
(19:25:25) <ewlol> Have been ignored
(19:25:32) <ewlol> Or deemed not interesting?
(19:25:33) <Tonky> or maple leaves ;_;
(19:25:34) <Oddity> I still don't understand why it's not very simple to make their inventory larger
(19:25:37) <loftar> Yeah, we usually ignore *concrete* ideas entirely.
(19:25:46) <DDDsDD999> Maple leaves ;_;
(19:25:52) <Tonky> what about wanted posters, loftar?
(19:25:56) <Zou> wtf is with maple leaves
(19:25:56) <loftar> Because their implementation sucks, Oddity.
(19:26:01) <Tonky> thought you once said you liked that one
(19:26:10) <loftar> That's one of the things we've considered, Tonky. Potjeh had a very nice idea about them.
(19:26:19) <loftar> Of course, we won't just take his idea in the concrete and implement it.
(19:26:24) <ewlol> Hah
(19:26:27) <ewlol> This is funny
(19:26:29) <Oddity> How are they implemented that you can't just change a few variables and make their inventory larger?
(19:26:34) <ewlol> It's like you listen to ideas and write down "DO NOT DO THIS"
(19:26:35) <loftar> We would need to deconstruct the idea anyway in order to fully understand it.
(19:26:37) <Tonky> ha ha i can almost feel what pain was saying :p
(19:26:45) <Oddity> Tonky, about what
(19:26:55) <loftar> They save their inventory size in their saved data, Oddity.
(19:27:09) <Tonky> pain was whining its always pot that get great ideas but never him ;p
(19:27:15) <DDDsDD999> ewlol, have you read the C&I archive?
(19:27:16) <Coles> w7 for bigger ovens GO LOFTAR GO
(19:27:43) <Alg> I agree with coles!
(19:27:46) <ewlol> Or how about the many times that people requested "plese make the default client window resizable"
(19:27:47) <Alg> and that is sad
(19:27:51) <ewlol> What did you ignore that?
(19:27:57) <Oddity> Is not our Fuhrer glorious?
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(19:28:06) <loftar> Because making the window resizable would make the client incredibly ugly.
(19:28:07) <ewlol> I think most every program created for the computer has a resizable window
(19:28:10) <loftar> Since you'd see the cutoff distance.
(19:28:25) <ewlol> Do you think Pacho's client was incredibly ugly?
(19:28:30) <loftar> In that regard, yes.
(19:28:45) <Oddity> ah, Pacho's
(19:28:50) <Oddity> back in the day of Gilbert's client
(19:28:58) <Oddity> memoriessss
(19:28:58) <Tonky> tbt, ive never used pacho's
(19:29:08) <Oddity> LONG LIVE WORLD 3!
(19:29:12) <DDDsDD999> Pachos was pretty cool.
(19:29:21) <ewlol> I just dont understand
(19:29:27) <DDDsDD999> Only reason I used gilbertus was because pachos went out of date I think.
(19:29:29) <ewlol> How you could let clients turn into what they are ow
(19:29:29) <Tonky> gilbertus was better when i started playing
(19:29:41) <loftar> What would be the alternative, ewlol?
(19:29:49) <ewlol> Do you really want people to be using all of these feautres?
(19:29:50) <Tonky> not better, but yeah, out of date thing, i guess
(19:29:57) <ewlol> I mean did you not intend for rocks to hide people?
(19:30:04) <ewlol> And for walls to hide people too?
(19:30:14) <ewlol> And for foraging to bemore challengeing than it is now?
(19:30:17) <loftar> Well, it's not really something we explicitly planned for.
(19:30:19) <ewlol> The list goes on and on and on
(19:30:26) <Coles> Could you not take from enders client and then remove the features you dislike for standard??
(19:30:27) <Tonky> and cupboards to hide items you didnt mean to drop? ;(
(19:30:29) <Alg> ziggy
(19:30:31) <ewlol> And then you end up having to change code and rewrite shit
(19:30:34) <loftar> And either way, rocks couldn't hide people anyway, since the clients actually had the information necessary to display them.
(19:30:36) <DDDsDD999> And maple leaves ;_;
(19:30:37) <Alg> I need moral guidance
(19:30:40) <ewlol> Its like self-torture
(19:30:48) <ewlol> You talk about how annoying certain things are to code
(19:30:52) <DDDsDD999> Yes, algyturtle?
(19:30:54) <Alg> I just found an idol with no lawspeaker
(19:30:55) <Tonky> yes maple leaves falling ;_;
(19:30:57) <Alg> and an online hf inside
(19:30:57) <loftar> I mean, would it have been better that people would have cr4xx0red custom clients in secret instead of at least letting people know what they were doing?
(19:30:59) <Alg> do I take it?
(19:31:03) <DDDsDD999> Yes.
(19:31:06) <ewlol> But you are making it even more annoying it seems by allowing these clients to mutate into worse and worse things
(19:31:12) <DDDsDD999> And then you oath me over.
(19:31:18) <DDDsDD999> And we have lulz
(19:31:27) <Tonky> mutate into worse? like what?
(19:31:33) <Oddity> Alg, I wish I had a character with Lawspeaking so I could take it
(19:31:37) <Alg> lol
(19:31:41) <loftar> I don't see what the alternative to "allowing" them would be, ewlol.
(19:31:47) <ewlol> Not allowing them
(19:31:52) <loftar> I mean, it's not like people will stop doing it just because we "forbid" them.
(19:32:00) <Tonky> ^
(19:32:10) <ewlol> How can so many games have clients that can't be raped like yours can
(19:32:20) <DDDsDD999> Say oddgod won't allow it.
(19:32:26) <loftar> Well, for one thing, do they really?
(19:32:28) <Tonky> lol
(19:32:29) <Coles> If you added enders hotbars then standard client wouldnt even be that bad
(19:32:31) <Zou> Because those games don't give out the source code
(19:32:40) <loftar> It's not as if people don't wallhack in counterstrike and whatnot.
(19:32:48) <DDDsDD999> Ender's hotbars sux
(19:33:02) <loftar> But yeah, it's also because they find it worthwhile their time to actually engage rulebreakers somehow.
(19:33:03) <DDDsDD999> Easy to swap numbad bars 4 lyfe
(19:33:05) <Tonky> its not like ppl need the source code to write, zou
(19:33:14) <loftar> I, for my part, could not imagine anything more boring and counterproductive.
(19:33:33) <ewlol> If you don't want to babysit people then take preventative measures
(19:33:34) <loftar> There were custom clients long before the source code was public, Zou.
(19:33:47) <loftar> What would those preventive measures be, ewlol?
(19:33:52) <Rawrz> all it would do is cause clients to become hidden =o
(19:33:54) <ewlol> Listen to input when people give it
(19:33:55) <DDDsDD999> Goon client raeped butts
(19:33:56) <ewlol> Perhaps?
(19:34:02) <loftar> What kind of input?
(19:34:04) <Rawrz> so less people would have i
(19:34:06) <Rawrz> t
(19:34:07) <Coles> Any kind
(19:34:21) <ewlol> People wouldn't have created these bastardizations if you would have just said "OK, We'll resize the damn window"
(19:34:24) <loftar> What kind of input would prevent custom clients?
(19:34:26) <Oddity> Input like "please remove movement combat"
(19:34:33) <ewlol> And anyways the 500x500 resolution doesn't even reach the cuttoff
(19:34:37) <loftar> But resizing the window would have made it too ugly for me to bear.
(19:34:39) <Coles> I sent you an exploitable bed bug and it was ignored, just sort of gets the community discouraged quickly
(19:34:48) <Tonky> like any pande stopped using kt client, ewlol?
(19:34:51) <loftar> Yes, that is so that you never see the cutoff, ewlol.
(19:35:02) <ewlol> tonky that has nothing to do with this
(19:35:06) <DDDsDD999> I still use kt client ;_;
(19:35:09) <ewlol> i'll admit i use custom clients
(19:35:12) <Tonky> why, it does
(19:35:17) <ewlol> what do you want?
(19:35:20) <ewlol> im not a saint
(19:35:34) <DDDsDD999> loftar, with the lag it does ^__^
(19:35:41) <ewlol> i dont agreen with them and secondly i think i have like 40 hours of play time in the last 365 days
(19:35:56) <Zou> thats a lot of hours
(19:36:00) <Oddity> Dear loftar, when will you remove the wretched and destructive "movement combat" from thy holy game?
(19:36:01) <Tonky> so what, you think you can use custom clients but not others?
(19:36:15) <ewlol> kt client
(19:36:18) <ewlol> literally
(19:36:22) <ewlol> had all features
(19:36:24) <ewlol> except 1
(19:36:27) <ewlol> and that was a radar
(19:36:32) <Coles> lolwat
(19:36:35) <Alg> it has radar
(19:36:36) <Coles> kt has radar
(19:36:45) <loftar> The reason I don't really want to make changes to Haven at all right now is because I don't have the time to follow up on them and properly understand what effect they would
have ingame.
(19:36:46) <ewlol> it wasn't come exclusive ultra client
(19:36:55) <Oddity> loftar, just let me and burgingham be your conscience
(19:37:01) <loftar> No
(19:37:03) <ewlol> where you had to create accounts with the owner
(19:37:07) <DDDsDD999> He meant all features that were public.
(19:37:11) <DDDsDD999> Minus radar.
(19:37:12) <Zou> oddity != burgy
(19:37:15) <Coles> Why not add some shit and let us test it, it beats the hell out of a boring w5 clone for another year +
(19:37:18) <Tonky> lol oddity
(19:37:23) <ewlol> enders + radar = KT
(19:37:27) <loftar> Because I don't have time to follow up on it, Coles.
(19:37:28) <ewlol> so, what is your point
(19:37:45) <Zou> Coles: don't play?
(19:37:54) <Oddity> But between me and burgingham we know what is best for the game and we can tell loftar everything he needs to know so he won't have to follow up on everything by himself
(19:38:00) <Zou> it can't be that boring if you continue to play
(19:38:14) <Tonky> what is best for the game? lol
(19:38:21) <Coles> When crs were updated, I was excited. It was a shit and pointless update to not be able to build them indoors, but it was dev input lol
(19:38:25) <Oddity> loftar, what % finished are you on multi-server support for Salem? Is there an ETA?
(19:38:29) <loftar> I don't actually believe that, Oddity. There is no way I can know that they overlap with mine and Jorb's vision for the game.
(19:38:34) <Oddity> Darn
(19:38:36) <loftar> In fact, I'd be rather surprised if they did.
(19:38:48) <ewlol> why don't you just add it and let US give you soem feedback?
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(19:38:56) <ewlol> can't you trust your player's feedback?
(19:38:58) <Zou> because your feedback is shit
(19:38:58) <DDDsDD999> loftar, oddity is jorb
(19:39:00) <DDDsDD999> And burgi is loftar.
(19:39:04) <Tonky> ofc not lol
(19:39:06) <loftar> Do you know how much time is required to actually read and filter all that feedback, ewlol?
(19:39:06) <DDDsDD999> You are algyturtle.
(19:39:12) <DDDsDD999> I am oddity.
(19:39:18) <DDDsDD999> Algyturtle is burgi
(19:39:19) <irctc661> Loftar, Haircuts, That is all.
(19:39:20) <loftar> Far more than is required to implement the features, at least.
(19:39:21) <ewlol> if this is just your personal project and you want to live in a bubble where you don't listen to your playerbase why do you even have a playerbase
(19:39:24) * irctc661 has quit IRC (Quit: irctc661)
(19:39:35) <loftar> Well, tbt, for Haven, we don't care much about the playerbase.
(19:39:36) <Zou> ewlol: just quit
(19:39:42) <loftar> I don't believe in "democratic" game development.
(19:39:51) <Tonky> he he
(19:39:55) <loftar> That just makes it bland, visionless and just a "checklist" of features.
(19:39:59) <Zou> )))))))))))
(19:40:19) <Oddity> loftar, what % finished are you on multi-server support for Salem? Is there an ETA?
(19:40:56) <DDDsDD999> Oddity: Maple leaves ;_________________________________;
(19:40:59) <Tonky> these closed beta keys giving away is actually starting to be real annoying tbh
(19:41:02) <loftar> There isn't really an ETA, because I need to properly figure out the problems first, and then formulate a plan to solving them, and I can't really predict exactly how long
that takes, since there's no plan to follow.
(19:41:11) <loftar> It *shouldn't* have to be more than a few weeks, though.
(19:41:39) <Oddity> cool
(19:42:03) <Coles> Do you care about your salem playerbase?
(19:42:04) <ewlol> loftar, why don't you just get rid of the forum
(19:42:10) <Tonky> so what is your plan like, when you want to update some things requiring a new map, loftar_
(19:42:11) <ewlol> if you don't care about the hnh playerbase
(19:42:12) <loftar> Well, *more* at least, Coles.
(19:42:13) <Coles> I might just change sides if so, if only to bitch lol
(19:42:15) <Zou> ewlolm why don't you just stop crying
(19:42:16) <Oddity> Or better yet, just get rid of Ainran
(19:42:17) <ewlol> just make an announcement thread
(19:42:20) <ewlol> and tell us what you are doing
(19:42:34) <ewlol> we'd better be left in the dark than ever thinking you care about our opinion
(19:42:49) <Zou> lol
(19:42:55) <loftar> It's not as if we don't care at all, obviously, ewlol. That wasn't my point.
(19:42:57) <DDDsDD999> ewlol, lolew
(19:43:05) <Tonky> some people dont wanna hear the truth, ewlol
(19:43:14) <ewlol> we post in the forums because we think you might be listening
(19:43:18) <loftar> It's fun to see people play, people need to discuss among themselves, and it can be meaningful to distill some of the larger idea streams.
(19:43:19) <ewlol> because we think you care
(19:43:25) <Zazzie> There hasn't been much done to haven in forever, even something small would make it more interesting
(19:43:30) <ewlol> but if you torture us and make us think youare listening
(19:43:32) <DDDsDD999> Personally, I post in the forums to piss off RJT
(19:43:47) <DDDsDD999> And steal his woman.
(19:43:47) <loftar> Now you're just whining, though, and I'm not particularly interested in that.

[jordancoles]

Any news from The Devs about "returning" or at least fixing some shit?

We got some not very promising statements from loftar off of irc, not to say that they aren't gonna work on the game again but he wasn't exactly comping at the bit to either. Also got the feeling that he sort of considers "Salem" his baby now. Will try to get quotes and add in here today.

(19:38:48) <ewlol> why don't you just add it and let US give you soem feedback?
(19:38:56) <ewlol> can't you trust your player's feedback?
(19:39:06) <loftar> Do you know how much time is required to actually read and filter all that feedback, ewlol?
(19:39:20) <loftar> Far more than is required to implement the features, at least.
(19:39:21) <ewlol> if this is just your personal project and you want to live in a bubble where you don't listen to your playerbase why do you even have a playerbase
(19:39:35) <loftar> Well, tbt, for Haven, we don't care much about the playerbase.
(19:39:36) <Zou> ewlol: just quit
(19:39:42) <loftar> I don't believe in "democratic" game development.
(19:39:51) <Tonky> he he
(19:39:55) <loftar> That just makes it bland, visionless and just a "checklist" of features.

Here's a start

[Tonkyhonk]

as if there were anything new to read in that convo?
haven is their baby, salem is their business. 'nuff said.

(who would want to get oppressed with democracy about your own baby care anyways?)

[Potjeh]

Welcome to last year.