Ainran still burning - PV clean up crew cleans PV

[burgingham]

If you read my post you would see that I rendered all your arguments invalid. This is about social interactions only. Your idiotic "shoot people in real life" comparison is of no value whatsoever.

Those interactions are indeed based on values that are of general validity.

[GrapefruitV]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

[shotgunn902]

for once in a long time i do have to agree with burg on this one

he made some great points

[jordancoles]

Leah until you come up with something new to say, please stop

[leah]

Or, the game is simply a role-playing game with a set of rules. Your choice to self-impose certain ethical rules within a game is allowed, but don't assume that just because you do it, other people who don't are automatically douchebags in real life as well.

Your first mistake is imposing an arbitrary line between real life and the game. The social interactions within this game have to be classified as real by any sociologic standard.

Furthermore people invest real time in the game and they pour real commitment into it. The relationships they form often go beyond what is happening in game as exactly this thread and its recent turn of event shows. If you deny all these facts as many of the reckless playerkillers do then yes you show real signs of a sociopath since you are unable to find any empathy for what other players have invested their time and emotions into.

As usual I have to mention that most of those playerkillers also broke the imposed set of in game rules more than one time to commit their crimes, which you conveniently forget.

The problem then gets even bigger when the logical chain of interactions is taken the other way around and in game events cause people to feel real hate or similar feelings towards the ones harming them. Very understandable though if we again look at the real investment into the game our before mentioned sociopaths chose to destroy.

I do understand that people get upset when they lose something that they've invested a lot of effort into; however, that doesn't mean that they did no mistakes and they shouldn't take responsability for the mistakes they did.

For instance, whatever friendships formed in H&H, should evolve to a friendship that is larger than just a common interest in a particular game if both persons really want to build a strong friendship. It is also important that every player is very well aware of what the actual rules are in this game so that they do not get overwhelmed once another person does something "bad" withing the game rules.

Finally, it is important to realize that it is a game played for the sake of entertainment. If you want a strong friendship, find something else that can connect you both other than just a game with as much freedom as H&H gives.

I am surprised that so many of you are against this distinction of game and real life. In EVE, scamming is a natural part of the game and rational people don't think you are the worst scumbag in real life just because they managed to fool you in a game where deception is a major aspect.

As for playerkillers: if playerkillers break the rules of the game, the persons behind them ought to be condemned in proportion to the offense they committed.

Ironically, I am a very helpful person who does not grief in Salem, but does indeed track down raiders on request. However, I realize the distinction between real life and game. I respect that there are different gameplay styles like being a white knight, slave driver, raider, scammer, thief, trader, etc. without resorting to thinking that they are horrible human beings in real life. I embrace the freedom and role-playing aspect of sandbox games such as these.

I dislike that the H&H forum is not designed for mature debate due to the lack of rules, which is why I embrace the Salem one as well as resort to immature "debate" in the H&H from time to time. I believe that every game needs a place where its community can debate in a mature way without being interrupted by flaming, sarcasm or offtopic comments; something I miss in H&H.

[leah]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

To be more precise: you can lie about something related to a game, without lying about something not related to a game.

[Ogrim]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

To be more precise: you can lie about something related to a game, without lying about something not related to a game.

You can't lie to a game, you can only lie to another person playing a game. So... again, how can you lie to someone IRL while you are playing a game with them without lying to them IRL? It's not a question, it's a statement.

When you lie to someone in the game, YOU STILL LIE TO SOMEONE. The someone is real. The lie is real.

I think you need to understand that underneath the mechanics of a game, reality remains.

[GrapefruitV]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

To be more precise: you can lie about something related to a game, without lying about something not related to a game.

but still it will be a lie, right?
and majority of ethical systems condemn the lie, right?
or are you trying to say hnh has own system, which is totally ok with lie?
yeah, there are few specific rules, but I can not call it a complete system
anyway, even if we will call it a system and try to separate it from real life ethics, almost everyone here will estimate lie as negative value (proof is this thread)

[leah]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

To be more precise: you can lie about something related to a game, without lying about something not related to a game.

You can't lie to a game, you can only lie to another person playing a game. So... again, how can you lie to someone IRL while you are playing a game with them without lying to them IRL? It's not a question, it's a statement.

When you lie to someone in the game, YOU STILL LIE TO SOMEONE. The someone is real. The lie is real.

I think you need to understand that underneath the mechanics of a game, reality remains.

You are right that you that you are lying to whoever is the real life person playing the other character at that moment; however, it is lie related to a game in which there is no explicit rule against lying (EVE is a good example of this), which is why I consider a such lie to be inferior in the "bad"-scale to a lie related to something outside a game with such rules.

It is important though to note that both involved persons consensually agreed to play a game with a certain ruleset.

[leah]

leah, explain how can you lie ingame without lying irl please.

To be more precise: you can lie about something related to a game, without lying about something not related to a game.

but still it will be a lie, right?
and majority of ethical systems condemn the lie, right?
or are you trying to say hnh has own system, which is totally ok with lie?
yeah, there are few specific rules, but I can not call it a complete system
anyway, even if we will call it a system and try to separate it from real life ethics, almost everyone here will estimate lie as negative value (proof is this thread)

Yes, games have their own systems defined by their rules, which is why lying in pure "lying games" isn't and shouln't be seen as bad as lying in normal out-of-game real life relationships. (H&H isn't a pure "lying game", but it is indeed allowed to a major extent by the rules or to be more precise: lack of rules)