A Strive For A Better Commonwealth

[julian12it]

Marvelous thread keep up the good work.

[Zeronine]

Since your post is built on high strung ideals and a "carebear" at best moral code I can only say: Good luck sir. It's gonna be nigh impossible convincing a larger part of this community to upholding it, and if you ever want to see it go global, you'll have to attempt something along the lines of Dis' route of the peacegrid. Which we all know is now a more or less failed case.

So unless you plan on enforcing non violence by violence I'm afraid you're preaching for deaf ears.

[LostJustice]

You've made a well constructed post, and I truly appreciate what you do by doing this, even if I don't agree with the content.

You've made a claim, a claim in the foundation of this.

We steal and take out of greed and without much thought for the other person or persons. Why? The game is set up to allow this and we do it. This is wrong, no one ever gives a second thought how the other person feels.

This isn't wrong, your opinion is that it's wrong. You cannot say that the intended mechanics shouldn't have their place. This game can be emotionally tearing to some, it really can be. But just like all other walks of life, sometimes it isn't fair and you have to deal with what that ensues. There are limits the game has set, and it has set them far out. Not you nor anyone else should deny someone using what has been put in place in the game just because of what it means to those impacted. Has this suddenly turned into an everyone wins game? Last time I checked this game was filled with competition. Do both people win in chess? No they don't because it's not meant for both people to win.

This isn't going to have unanimity, if others happen to disagree with the core opinion then they'll not follow the rest.

Past that, some of what you say just appears to me as too kind/carebear'y, but hell that's just me.

PS: You'll never need that many reserved posts, look at Sevenless' guide, 55k characters and it still fits into one post.

The Reserved Posts are in case I want to break the 4 steps into separate sections for navigation purposes. Yes I do agree the game has set limits but my goal again is not restricting the game any further but to provide respect among player to player, and that stealing was mainly off of high level players stealing from noobs and dumping their stuff in the river or throwing everything on the ground. I know regular stealing and raiding is an important aspect but there's extents when it should be done rather then people over using the system.

Also, this isn't to make it a win-win, in fact it doesn't change that at all. Even in player versus player people follow some type of code, don't kill your comrades and don't die. This is just giving an idea to add more to that code to make Haven and Hearth a better community. Mainly removing profanity and inhuman acts that currently happen.

[LostJustice]

>H&H code of honor

There is no "lulz" in honor, and H&H is all about fucking up other people's fun and joy for your own amusement.
And the next time I start playing I'm bringing along some friends, we're gonna play the game Parchir style, practice movement combat all day and kill newbies all night, encorporate Trollbug's famous guerilla warfare tactics and snipe the fuck out of scrubby villages while we skilfully avoid conflicts with major factions by giving a tribute of "pearl necklaces" to their female members.

Your the main topic and example of this thread.

[Swarm]

>H&H code of honor

There is no "lulz" in honor, and H&H is all about fucking up other people's fun and joy for your own amusement.
And the next time I start playing I'm bringing along some friends, we're gonna play the game Parchir style, practice movement combat all day and kill newbies all night, encorporate Trollbug's famous guerilla warfare tactics and snipe the fuck out of scrubby villages while we skilfully avoid conflicts with major factions by giving a tribute of "pearl necklaces" to their female members.

Your the main topic and example of this thread.

We should all blindly follow you as our shining example of morality and embrace the rules you impose on us, putting aside fun and focusing on making a video game "better" so it turns into a Farmville with a larger map.

You're full of it.

[LostJustice]

>H&H code of honor

There is no "lulz" in honor, and H&H is all about fucking up other people's fun and joy for your own amusement.
And the next time I start playing I'm bringing along some friends, we're gonna play the game Parchir style, practice movement combat all day and kill newbies all night, encorporate Trollbug's famous guerilla warfare tactics and snipe the fuck out of scrubby villages while we skilfully avoid conflicts with major factions by giving a tribute of "pearl necklaces" to their female members.

Your the main topic and example of this thread.

We should all blindly follow you as our shining example of morality and embrace the rules you impose on us, putting aside fun and focusing on making a video game "better" so it turns into a Farmville with a larger map.

You're full of it.

Obviously you did not read. Neither did the above poster read either, reason why I posted that. So next time read before you make assumptions. In no way does this change Haven and Hearth to No Combat.

[LadyGoo]

I read through the OP post and willing to try to express my thoughts over it. There are some points I agree or disagree with as well as some new thoughts inspired by some ideas.

Villages are fighting villages, brothers and sisters versus brothers and sisters. We fight over object inside a game that we cannot obtain or are too lazy to obtain for ourselves. We steal and take out of greed and without much thought for the other person or persons. Why? The game is set up to allow this and we do it.

Agreeing with ApocalypsePlease (viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28972&start=10#p374826). Adding the statement that people are born to be lazy in order to find easier ways of reaching anything without wasting their energy. So, if killing/stealing from someone saves you a couple of hours in a nearest perspective, you are going to do it. Haven and hearth is just a simulation of humankind nature within certain boundaries (here it is game mechanics and the server population).

The H&H game world attempts -- to no small an extent -- to simulate events and processes of the real world in a digitalized form.

It is as natural as a wolf killing a sheep. The world won't think about how hard is the life of the sheep, how happy it was before she killed the sheep. You cannot blame any wolf saying it is wrong. It is only wrong for you and the victim, whereas for the wolf and her pack it is great, since they will be most likely to survive. Which is bad (offensive) for one is good (peaceful) for another.

When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions. Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. If you stand on the tile I wish to plow, I can hurt you to make you go away. If, on the other hand, I can't attack you, then you have the means to permanently and irrevocably deny me particular courses of action for as long as you and your whims see fit. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

Link to the whole post: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17900#p202229

Now you may be asking why don't we make a faction or force to clear these killers and people. That just wont work that's why. You can send countless individuals and groups off on these crusades but they will never get anywhere. They are trying to fight fire with fire and violence with violence.

It worked. It doesn't work now since there is currently no effective way to take over vaults and ploted cities in this game. Even for factions who have 50+ members. Also, this game experience gaining system allows people to have multiple characters, so they will be back in few days ready to kill and grief. And endless circle again.

It is possible to stop such things to some extent by being able to bring the justice and causing significant damage to the enemy. Back to world 3, people were afraid of brickbashers who were able to destroy any brickwalled vault. They were also afraid of building impenetrable vaults since developers would just wipe them. Moreover, you would be able to grind only one or two fighter characters by working hard and those characters were too valuable to be lost. You'd be afraid of losing them for some nonsense such as killing a newb. As a result, the crime levels were never so high like other worlds. I am not saying brickbashing should be back, but saying that the game mechanics have a significant input to the mentality of the players. They will act peaceful since so are the limits they are playing within.


But hey! There is another side of the coin, btw. It is well-known that wolfs came to settlements and let themselves to be tamed by the people. Before this moment they didn't knew what kind of benefit can be obtained. They are now looking after the sheep since it benefits them more than their previous life style. They have a shelter, food in a daily/or not really daily basis, love, do not have to fight the human when stealing another sheep. Now what is good/bad for you is good/bad for the wolf as well. We can see this happening from watching how some small villages try to seek an alliance with a bigger faction by promising them some benefits. So those big boys become shepherds and will try to defend their sheep from other wolves. There is always a way to play peacefully as you want by understanding the game community deeper/ being able to deal with the wolfs. Someone who would work over enlightening new players/ explaining the benefits from co-operation to veterans would really help with the situation.
Also, people usually kill the people they do not know/ hate/ have in game conflicts such as faction wars. People should work over their communication I guess (or even someone who'd tell them they need to communicate).


I think the whole point made by you is the respect to other players. Most likely, if people would start respect each other even a little, there would be no need for any codes/rules. In reality, some of the problems are driven from the people being unable/too lazy to realize that someone whom they didn't ever see or talked to in private worth of some respect. I do not really see how it might be changed, since people tend to base their opinion over a person according his in game status (stereotypes over whether the person is an enemy/faction/cannot fight back/have nothing valuable).

you'll have to attempt something along the lines of Dis' route of the peacegrid. Which we all know is now a more or less failed case.

Quoting the real idea what the project is.

It seems you are making wrong assumption on the said purpose of the supposed PEACE Zone. You see, no one ever meant of "giving justice to any wronged members". Nor ever was meant that we make obligation of patrolling the grid. Nor ever was meant that we make obligation of tracking every single scent out there. Nor ever was meant that being in this SG somehow magically protect from every single raider in the world and guarantees peaceful life. We may do any of things above as much as one wish to, and some of us indeed do spare their time on those activities. Yet. you can't demand any of above.
Now, the only thing we made obligation of is to not attack anyone living in this grid without really good reason. Which is sort of what happened to you. Yet, the ones who force this obligation on us and controls its fulfillment are ourselves again. Not you, not public opinion, not anyone else. We merely informed others about it. Whether one accept it as it is, or ignore, or laugh at it - is one own choice. And, lets face it, judging by your overall tone in this thread. except maybe OP, you came here for mockery and prolonging your flame wars , not to really solve the situation in any constructive manner. Having said all that, we did discuss your incident among us, and made some actions to prevent similar occasions in the future.

Linke to the whole post: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28619&start=20#p368837

[LostJustice]

Thank yo for your response LadyGoo, I agree with what you are saying and this is mainly about respect with player to player or village to village. Yes the wolves will always eat sheep and probably wont turn vegetarian any time soon but, to an extent players can still support and change their life styles to a better life style and hopefully have morals. Human interaction will always be corrupt but we can control it if we want to. Even in todays society everything like this still happens. But it isn't as common. You say hi to your neighbours and they don't reply with an arrow in your chest but with a "Good morning." People began building walls to keep safe their items from bandits and hostile clans. Reason why cities ever really formed in the first place via real life history. But people began to have morals and these cities soon began to develop. What I am hoping to do is help develop some good morals into Haven and Hearth that can lead to more possibilities in which players can work together to form a strong community.

Also about the disagreement on parts, if you quote and state the flaws you see in a specific part I am willing to change it because no draft or idea is perfect and most good drafts are formed on a basis of multiple persons.

Edit: Forgot to write this in. This isn't a peace zone movement. It a better moral idea.

[Bawhoppen]

This Thread Is Pain To Many, I'm Glad It'll Never Happen

[rye130]

Making a set of guidelines on the forum isn't going to change anything. Changes to the community happen through changes to the game. The current "barbaric-like" state of the game is a result of the curiosity system making characters very expendable. When characters are expendable death is not nearly the penalty it once was because you probably already have 3 other characters to take your dead ones place and if not you'll be back up and running at nearly the same efficiency within a week.