Jordan Clark + Jiochan Downed by Mcfighter

[Valten21]

Also if the combat system isn't supposed to be about timing at all the intensity system seems a bit counter intuitive. When you are fighting at 10 intensity the moves go by quick, it's easy to fuck up because you don't click fast enough.*

Going to bed tho so will have to wait some hours for a response Burg.

[burgingham]

Well, good for the devs to have such input then. That is actually useful to balance the system out later on (if it doesn't get replaced completely which is what I suspect)

I am still proposing a turn based combat system btw. That would also be a possible way to deal with sieges.


Edit: To your last point, that is a bit odd indeed. But when I told Jorb about all the shennanigans that were pulled with the current system he was surprised to no end. He as his usual self of course found it to be highly amusing, but nontheless he said he did not intend it to be this way. He was specifically making the TCG comparison since we both were familiar with Magic: The Gathering.

[DDDsDD999]

I am still proposing a turn based combat system btw. That would also be a possible way to deal with sieges.

I really hate instances (I think that's the word for it?) or stages, it just dosen't fit the game for me. I almost hate there being the aggro instance but I can't think of any way to change that.

[ydex]

I really hate instances (I think that's the word for it?) or stages, it just dosen't fit the game for me.

I totally agree with this really. besides i find it that the game is sort of turn-based, due to the cooldowns. A fluid turn-based system lol.

Finally a good discution gj guys.

[bmjclark]

Dunno Burg movement combat is way more then just hitting someone moving.

first incarnations of it in pandemonium were kiting coins to use opportuntiy knocks on people un-expecting of it. The idea was simple... no one uses anything other then flex punch, and oppknocks/sting is far superior then flex punch, so if we kite the person around using same speed run speeds untill we have enough coins to do that, then we can kill the person?! Movement combat is about being able to adapt to all your situations and use the best moves at the right time. It really opened up a lot of moves that otherwise can't be used in "standing - still " combat, like consume the flames, evil eye, battle cry, sting like a bee, and previously mentioned opportunity knocks.

In it's first forms oppknocks combos would work because not a person thought of doing it, they would just call down at best 6 coins back and try and flex punch us. People obviously caught on though, so we started agumenting our strategy until we had a hand full of ways to go about it and even founded ways to counter the original strategy (evil eye). Lots of skill involved, using the right moves in the right situations is what it's all about.

In the end stats still give you an advantage, trying to opp knocks someone down but they are doing it back with higher agility and higher delta combat meditiation means they are going to kill you first.

This. I really wish the non-movement combat could adapt that kind of play honestly. It's pretty interesting fighting other people from ainran and seeing the counterplays to various moves. In non-movement combat, i use like 5 moves (seize the day, flex, slide, dash and charge) and very rarely a 6th (invocation of the skuld). In movement combat, i use at least double that (skuld, op knocks, evil eye, slide, stern order, CDT, flex, valorous strike to reset advantage, battle cry, sting like a bee, and a few more that i cant think of at the moment).

There's a lot of counterplays that happen. Someone is op knocking me? Well, i could slide because most people don't actually plan for the strangely enough. I could evil eye them, i could skuld them to push advantage and slide a few times and make them waste their 26 or so IP trying to kill me. I could simply punch, op knocks, battle cry, valorous strike and hope to god it kills them. They're pushing advantage? I could use the fact that they're using their IP pushing advantage to my advantage and go for a kill combo on them, or i could valorous strike them to make them have wasted their coins. Meanwhile, over in non-movement combat, i'm flexing, seizing the day, sliding and punching.

I don't really have a solution to making it more interesting, short of flat out removing flex from the game and nerfing blood lust a bit so you can't just spam punch at someone and actually have to use the other moves to get someones defense down. I suspect it won't matter and combat is just gonna flat out get re done, but i hope to god it doesn't end up like salem's god awful combat system, because really, it doesn't get much worse then that.

[burgingham]

Well, that is all nice, but really doesn't adress the problem that movement combat needs to be taken out of the game completely since it was never meant to be there.

I know turn based combat wouldn't be a very popular suggestion. It is a possible solution to that though. The system needs a complete remodeling anyways. Probably none of what we got now will be left. Can only hope they do something other than in Salem though.

I am happy as long as time based decision making (aka fast clicking) will be gone and instead real strategy will be the core of the combat system plus taking into account economic power or one could say stats. There is games like LoL and all the other clones in that genre for what you seem to like in a game @most Ainran guys. Why do you not simply play those? They have much better structures for competition as well, like leagues, ladders etc. In HnH all of that has no place imo.

[DDDsDD999]

I am happy as long as time based decision making (aka fast clicking) will be gone and instead real strategy will be the core of the combat system plus taking into account economic power or one could say stats.

I have to agree with this, combat at the moment is too fast to have much strategy, it's mostly reflexes, only strategy is countering/doing combos.

[bmjclark]

Well, that is all nice, but really doesn't adress the problem that movement combat needs to be taken out of the game completely since it was never meant to be there.

I know turn based combat wouldn't be a very popular suggestion. It is a possible solution to that though. The system needs a complete remodeling anyways. Probably none of what we got now will be left. Can only hope they do something other than in Salem though.

I am happy as long as time based decision making (aka fast clicking) will be gone and instead real strategy will be the core of the combat system plus taking into account economic power or one could say stats. There is games like LoL and all the other clones in that genre for what you seem to like in a game @most Ainran guys. Why do you not simply play those? They have much better structures for competition as well, like leagues, ladders etc. In HnH all of that has no place imo.

(just gonna address each paragraph instead of splitting the quote)

I agree, i don't like movement combat, and i hate the idea of getting hit moving and dying just because you miss clicked, or better yet lagged. I find taking corners against someone who is simply trying to get cheap shots in on me while i'm moving is utterly irritating. I was more trying to say that i hope that you actually have to think about what moves you're using in non-movement combat whenever it gets revamped, instead of just using 4 moves out of the 20 (? really rough estimate, i'm pretty sure there's closer to 30) moves.

Turn based combat i really don't like tbh. I do like the concept of haven's combat. It obviously has glaring flaws, exploits, useless moves, moves that are just blatantly too strong (hi flex).

I do agree that reaction time checks really shouldn't be part of the combat. I hope, like you, that it's about strategy, quick thinking (as in deciding what move you're going to use next in the cooldown of the move you just used, reacting to what you're opponent is doing, not avoiding moving hits or anything like that) and of course stats. I hope someone with lower stats could overcome someone with higher stats if they have more experience and are smarter about how they play with the system (obviously though, if someone has 1000 UA vs my 300 they should win unless they do something unbelievably stupid)

As for the league question, i do play league of legends, and a lot for that matter . I like haven for the depth of it all to be honest. At this point though, haven feels utterly pointless and dead, and has since like 2 months into world 6. I could grind quality, but why bother when other people are just botting for better results, and 0 effort. Why grind my character when people won't try to fight me unless im trapped in a circle of alts with 15 people surrounding me? And again, people bot for better results. The game is too full of bots, bugs and alts for me to take seriously, so i log on occasionally (as in like 3 times a week) and pvp where i can.

Saying competition has no place in haven is a bit off too tbh. There's always competition, you would want to be the most powerful faction if you still played. You'd want to have the highest quality stuff, the strongest characters to maintain your spot as the strongest faction. There is always competition and always will be. Granted i agree the kind of competition that we seem to have created (aka shit posting every time someone dies) should stop. Though that is mostly from dealing with nonsense from Aracos to the point of frustration and wanting to rub it in his face every single time we killed one of them .

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

Now I feel like loon with my post.

[burgingham]

I never meant there is no competition in HnH. Just that it shouldn't centre in combat as it does right now. Combat should, as I have argued a long time now, just be the means to other ends in HnH. I dislike the fact that it has gotten such an importance by now and the way it is viewed. That conflicts with the way you Ainranians play and see the game, I know that and that provokes disagreement. Nontheless I want the game to look different and I still believe it is intended to look different.

You know when I would be asked to imagine a utopean state of HnH then some 1vs1 would not really occur at all or at least not play any role. Then it would be armies against each others because kingdoms went to war. Not 10 vs 10 either. Hundreds vs. hundreds would be nice. When I take this scenario as the base of my considerations though, then I have to consider the entire combat system as it is now as very flawed. Or at least as misfunctional since it leads to todays scenarios.

I still view this as a political and economic simulation. Not as some gang vs. gang fighting game. There is probably the difference between Ainran and myself. I said it before that as a placeholder I'd much prefer a pure number comparison: You got 100 ua, I got 500? You dead. GG. It would make people focus on what the game should be about. That however would shift the focus on other big problems, as you mention them Clark. Botters then would definitely have an even better position than they do now.


No offense to any of the Ainran fighters, but you guys would be more like some gang of highwaymen that a lazy king has to decide on wether to take the effort to hunt you guys down or let you roam free in that little forest of yours. He would potentially risk the life of some of his soldiers since it is well known you guys are better than his men in specific combat situations. If that other, evil king threatening his borders would not exist though he would just come to your forest with his entire army and just roflstomp you into the ground. Right now you unite the persona of the evil king and the one of the higway robber in one person though. Or to put it slightly different: The higwaymen can easily be kings because of their skills as highwaymen. That is definitely not what I expect from HnH.

P.S.: The current combat system could be translated into turn based combat quite easily btw. But that just as a side note.