Jordan Clark + Jiochan Downed by Mcfighter

[jordancoles]

If by pocket fighters u mean alts, then Jiochan has 2 chars to fall back on, plus his main. I have 1 asides for my main which i'm going to continue to use since full trad

Ainran has battle alts, confirmed.

Yup, old chars from people at the start of the world . At least they aren't created in an alt factory from botted troll skulls, botted foragables and botted farms tho, like every character you've ever left the walls with (or played for that matter)

I've had my combat alt since the start of the world... All his stats were gotten a long time ago but just never used because Malice was trad at the time. I wasn't always in Dis brah

[painhertz]

Well, good for the devs to have such input then. That is actually useful to balance the system out later on (if it doesn't get replaced completely which is what I suspect)

I am still proposing a turn based combat system btw. That would also be a possible way to deal with sieges.


Edit: To your last point, that is a bit odd indeed. But when I told Jorb about all the shennanigans that were pulled with the current system he was surprised to no end. He as his usual self of course found it to be highly amusing, but nontheless he said he did not intend it to be this way. He was specifically making the TCG comparison since we both were familiar with Magic: The Gathering.

Turn based combat ++++ I think the problem is that these days the "youth" are used to twitch gaming to the point that turn based combat is confusing and counter intuitive to them and maybe that's why Jorb/Loftar has avoided it. Personally give me turn based combat every time. i much prefer Chess to Basketball......

[bmjclark]

No offense to any of the Ainran fighters, but you guys would be more like some gang of highwaymen that a lazy king has to decide on wether to take the effort to hunt you guys down or let you roam free in that little forest of yours. He would potentially risk the life of some of his soldiers since it is well known you guys are better than his men in specific combat situations. If that other evil king threatening his borders would not exist though he would just come to your forest with his entire army and just roflstomp you into the ground. Right now you unite the persona of the evil king and the one of the higway robber in one person though. Or to put it slightly different: The higwaymen can easily be kings because of their skills as highwaymen. That is definitely not what I expect from HnH.

P.S.: The current combat system could be translated into turn based combat quite easily btw. But that just as a side note.

In fairness, i think a lot of that comes back to the lack of an actual siege system as much as it does combat. In a perfect world, you could siege my town of 6-10 people with your 20 and i'd have to fight (and probably die) or just die from being summoned. Now, i still think it should take a bit, because being raided over night while everyone is asleep is just shitty, no matter how u say it. Even more so considering if i attack a big town of say 30 people while most of them are asleep, i could overwhelm the few online and destroy a massive town with a small raiding force of 10 or so people. But that's getting a little off topic.

Last world as my example, if we could of gotten NNN/RUA/whatever they were outside to fight ainran/pandemonium/bottleneck/winterfell/RiC, we would of won. No doubt. We outnumbered them so badly, but it all came back to the lack of siege system.

If movement combat gets removed and normal combat revamped, i could be the best damn fighter in the game and if 25 people show up at my door step, i'm dead. Which is obviously fair. But i do think a lot of what you said in that paragraph comes back to the siege system, as much as it does combat.

The reason i'm against turned based combat is because the faster paced combat makes you think quicker about what your doing. As much as reflexes really shouldn't be a factor in the combat, i think thinking about the situation quickly and reacting accordingly should be. Maybe i'm just picturing the turn based combat wrong but i picture people taking like minute long turns that just make it all feel very slow. I don't really want to take 2 minutes to wait for my opponent to decide how best to block my sword attack. Perhaps some kind of turn based sieging would be interesting as i think someone suggested in this thread.

Anyways, i'm going to bed as it's 8 in the morning and i haven't slept yet. I'll look back into the thread tomorrow.

[Potjeh]

My main issue with combat is one hitting people. Whether it's a sword on the move cause of lag, or an rbow when you don't have a dhelm, instakills have no place in a game with open PvP and permadeath.

[jordancoles]

I never meant there is no competition in HnH. Just that it shouldn't centre in combat as it does right now. Combat should, as I have argued a long time now, just be the means to other ends in HnH. I dislike the fact that it has gotten such an importance by now and the way it is viewed. That conflicts with the way you Ainranians play and see the game, I know that and that provokes disagreement. Nontheless I want the game to look different and I still believe it is intended to look different.

You know when I would be asked to imagine a utopean state of HnH then some 1vs1 would not really occur at all or at least not play any role. Then it would be armies against each others because kingdoms went to war. Not 10 vs 10 either. Hundreds vs. hundreds would be nice. When I take this scenario as the base of my considerations though, then I have to consider the entire combat system as it is now as very flawed. Or at least as misfunctional since it leads to todays scenarios.

I still view this as a political and economic simulation. Not as some gang vs. gang fighting game. There is probably the difference between Ainran and myself. I said it before that as a placeholder I'd much prefer a pure number comparison: You got 100 ua, I got 500? You dead. GG. It would make people focus on what the game should be about. That however would shift the focus on other big problems, as you mention them Clark. Botters then would definitely have an even better position than they do now.


No offense to any of the Ainran fighters, but you guys would be more like some gang of highwaymen that a lazy king has to decide on wether to take the effort to hunt you guys down or let you roam free in that little forest of yours. He would potentially risk the life of some of his soldiers since it is well known you guys are better than his men in specific combat situations. If that other, evil king threatening his borders would not exist though he would just come to your forest with his entire army and just roflstomp you into the ground. Right now you unite the persona of the evil king and the one of the higway robber in one person though. Or to put it slightly different: The higwaymen can easily be kings because of their skills as highwaymen. That is definitely not what I expect from HnH.

P.S.: The current combat system could be translated into turn based combat quite easily btw. But that just as a side note.

Personally I don't mind the current system but turn-based in the end would be nice. Some quick fixes now though would be to not take full damage from movement hits for one. If you're wearing decent armor I'd be fine with a movement hit simply 0ing your defence and hitting you for 0. At least that way their defence is down for a real hit... If your normal sting would knock them to 50% when not moving, moving hits them to 0 instead. But not the 1.7k uncounterable sting bullshit that we have right now. Another thing to keep combat closer would be either removing thunder or shortening its distance significantly. Say, 5-10 tiles.

[bmjclark]

I've had my combat alt since the start of the world... All his stats were gotten a long time ago but just never used because Malice was trad at the time. I wasn't always in Dis brah

That comment was directed at ladygoo, and probably anyone who's had dis' union client since the start of the world (or soon after the start of the world. Like alex who gets like 2 troll skulls a day mining with his bot).

[jordancoles]

I've had my combat alt since the start of the world... All his stats were gotten a long time ago but just never used because Malice was trad at the time. I wasn't always in Dis brah

That comment was directed at ladygoo, and probably anyone who's had dis' union client since the start of the world (or soon after the start of the world. Like alex who gets like 2 troll skulls a day mining with his bot).

Alex has gotten one troll in like 3 months
But let's avoid this conversation I'd rather have kambert talk

[bmjclark]

My main issue with combat is one hitting people. Whether it's a sword on the move cause of lag, or an rbow when you don't have a dhelm, instakills have no place in a game with open PvP and permadeath.

That is one of my huge issues with it too, the others mostly involve call down the thunder and the fact that most of the moves are useless in a normal fight. And of course the fact that standing still and fighting is pretty much a blatant stat check, which isn't cool when people bot.

Honestly i think if all the skills were tweaked so that they were viable to be used without movement, and flex was either just flat out removed or changed to actually cost IP on each use then the combat would be a lot more interesting and a lot more skill based while also relying heavily on stats. Also, call down the thunder would obviously need to be removed, or reworked in order for movement combat to not be possible, or as strong depending on how it's changed. Beyond that though, things need to be done to address botting or whoever bots the most wins the fight due to large stat differences.

[Valten21]

JC speaks the truth about the decline of Ainrans "industry"

(I think you guys all seem to forget we actually had a pretty solid infrastructure at the start of the world, producing the first brick wall, highest quality cutthroat cuirass's/bows and some of the worlds highest stated characters. No one's grinded anything since January, or February when we all stopped playing as much.) - That's towards anon9k btw.

I can spend 5 minutes walking through a swamp or two and look at my invetory with a few ladys mantles and a toadstool then look at this picture



and not forage in a swamp again for a week

[burgingham]

@BMJ

Agreed that the siege system is a big part of the problem. I doubt anyone'd disagree here unless they are notorious vault abusers. Nontheless I would prefer a slower paced combat system.

Another thing that I only mentioned on the side is that this kind of combat does not really seem to be made for armies fighting against eachother except for 2 (?) moves. I think that is what it should be aiming for though and then we might have to get a merged combat and siege system in many aspects. So the discussions become one at that point if one agrees with such assumptions.

Not that I want to get back to instanced combat, but I remember people making suggestions about sieges being kinda like a gme within the game. Jorb and Loftar however seem to be aiming for in depth tower defense systems rather. Salem is a first step in that direction with the braziers and whatnot. I think that holds promise, but attackers as well as defenders have to get plenty of toys and options to play around with to make that a fun experience. Then it can maybe replace the small scale combat system alltogether.

For the issue of turns taking too long, of course one could simply put in a turn limit here. As much as I don't want combat to be decided by who can click a split second faster, I also dislike waiting for 5 minutes for my opponent to make a move.