~Ainran Has Fallen~

[AnnaC]

"Competitive" meaning "no fun allowed"?

[Tonkyhonk]

Instead of being part of the problem head over to the Critique & Ideas part of the forum and give proper good suggestions on how to fix the game so its less bot provocative. Issue is that JnL reset the world without fixing the underlying problems. Suggestions like giving combat a cap, fixing cheese so its not overpowerd, going back to W6 combat, reducing the hourglass timers, fix farming and so on have all been suggested to death.

But as it stands non of the suggestions above have really sunk in in the minds of our devs so we are either left with the option to quit haven or bot the shit out of it. Do you really think people would forage bot if it was a fraction of what a manual forager would output for example? or if farming didn't require 2 hours of straight up clicking and animals needing 50 units of food / day.

I would do it cause I love scripting, just for the shits and giggles. But average Joe bot forager would stop using his scripts.

i really hate spoilt kids like you, showing no respect at all to the developers who actually let us play their hobby game for free and you guys keep on demanding endlessly, going so arrogant as if it were your right to complain for this free toy you found. however great suggestions you believe there are, it is the devs who decide what are good and what they want to work on first or when. yes, there are quite a few that i want to see implemented on this game as well, but i find it very disrespecting to swear at them or to threaten them with "ill quit or bot if" for not doing what you want.


@joco,
you seem to have skipped reading other posters who say they dont cause you were too busy reading mine.

[_Gunnar]

@Xcom

If you actually read what I'm saying I hope that you can see that I'm not just "ranting", and I have actually given reasons why I disagree with one specific type of bot...

If you can't read what I'm writing, or if really think that forage botting is not or cannot be any more intensive than manual foraging I don't really see any point in continuing this discussion. Like I said I couldn't care less if people bot in general but when other people use bots in a way that denies other people the ability to play the way they want I do care. The simple principle or axiom is that you shouldn't stop other people from enjoying stuff that neither of you own. My argument is based on the assumption that you agree with that.

[Since you're in a scent free village either (a) you do agree with that or (b) you don't like the possibility of getting hurt for your actions. I guess if its purely (b) then you wont be able to understand my argument...]

I respect the fact that you enjoy scripting and want to use it to relieve things you find tedious, but please read what I said again if you are actually interested in continuing to talk - there is actually a reasoned argument there - although of course although I'm addressing this to you its not really directed at you but rather people who are not yet interested in forage bots or who maybe feel undecided. I understand completely that writing a forage bot would be pretty fun but using it intensively in an area where people live is rather obnoxious.

[rye130]

"Competitive" meaning "no fun allowed"?

I bot most of the tedious parts of the game that are no longer as fun to do the amount I need to do them to have relatively good stats so that I can enjoy the content I find fun

an issue will be discussed sooner or later. that is what the forums are for, right?
what ive been asking from the very start is to stop talking like everyone bots. or shut ramones up.

No one was really talking saying everyone botted until you kept pressing the issue.

I guess everyone knew it before that you are botting curios/pearls very hard.

Which big faction isn't on other hand?

Ramones said this generalization which you argued and read more into anything said to force opinions and "promotion" of botting. Sure maybe he wasn't right to say that big factions were botting, but generally speaking, the "big" factions in population are/were AD and Dis, both of who are known to bot heavily.

[_Gunnar]

"Competitive" meaning "no fun allowed"?

I bot most of the tedious parts of the game that are no longer as fun to do the amount I need to do them to have relatively good stats so that I can enjoy the content I find fun

What content do you find fun (apart from pvp) by the way? Just curious.
(I will always love making cheese and hq steel, both are so beautiful...)

[rye130]

I enjoy most of the game, just not in the bulk amount I need to for PvP. I do enjoy foraging and farming (I do my quality farming manually for example) in moderation. Hunting is always fun to me as well. I also really like village expansion and village layouts.

[_Gunnar]

I enjoy most of the game, just not in the bulk amount I need to for PvP. I do enjoy foraging and farming (I do my quality farming manually for example) in moderation. Hunting is always fun to me as well. I also really like village expansion and village layouts.

Ah, I see. It really is a shame that to stay competitive people need such bulk amounts of everything. I think fixing this is probably already a priority for the devs in haven 2.0, they have already said that they want to make character development more meaningful.

(I was wondering if you'd say "only pvp" in which case I had a whole trap mapped out :p )

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

WARNING: Wall of text!

There is a good amount of difference between botting because you are bored and botting because the mechanics make the entire progress a bunch of series of wasted clicks due to mechanics problem. I believe a method of reducing the "necessity" (your milage may vary) of bots is to implement some automated features that will reduces the sheer amount of clicks and repetition to perform one task.

As reiterated by many others, a reason why people bot is mitigrate some of the sheer tedium of some the task that is required in Haven. While it is arguable that some repetition is required, Haven and Hearth have some flaws within its current mechanics. A notable one that is often cited (from the people that I've spoken and worked with) is farming which involves quite a lot of clicking in a system that essentially forces you to work in an inefficient manner.

A good amount of people that I know of uses farm bots due to the tedium of harvesting the entire field, even if it is a relatively small one (compared to important factions). You first have to right click, select harvest, wait for a duration to harvest, take a seed from your inventory, and right click the tile. That is 4 actions (plus the wait time) to process just one single tile and you cannot queue all of the actions either so you must keep your attention on the field during the entire process * the amount of tiles you have on the field. And this is not even touching on other important things such as manually sorting out your seeds in your seed bags and picking up important byproducts such as fiber or pumpkins which requires a different procedure.

The other issue with the current farming system is the current inventory system not able to fulfill the needs of a dedicated manual farmer. Seed bags alleviate this problem to a decent degree for harvesting, but when it is time to sort them, they won't be able to sort them efficiently with a seed bag unless sorted by a bot. People often bypass this by dividing the crop field type into two section, one of them consisting of 33% of the field which they will place they highest quality seeds and only sort those.

Let me compare this to some of the other games that I know of that have some sort of farming system:
This is a bunch of listing of other games and comparing their farming system to Haven so it is skippable if you not interested.

Relevant games

• Unreal World- I haven't played a dedicated farmer before so I am not sure if you can utilize farming as a main source of food but farming is one of the ways to provide a staple amount of food to live off of. A large amount of the effort for farming actually takes place before you farm which requires you first till the field (Haven equivalent to plowing) and to burn firewood over the tiles you want to farm to nourish the soil. After you let the ash cool down, then you can start using the tile to farm. You do need to take into account if crop growth time and when they can be planted and when will they die off. This makes every factor pretty important in comparison especially considering that this is a perma-death game where every bit of food is important to survive. Fortunately each tile that is ready to be harvest provided a good amount of crops which you can cook them into dishes for greater nutrients.
  
  Overall the pace of the farming and game is a lot slower, the repetition itself requires more step then Haven. Tedium mostly sets in for planting and harvesting due to how long each of the step takes (2-3 times the hour glass wait time for Haven without a scythe). Aside from the pace of the game, I believe the biggest difference between Unreal World and Haven and Hearth, as survival games, is the fact that in Unreal World, food is pretty important where you generally don't want to waste any food (unless it is spoiled) while in Haven, hunger is virtually a non-existing problem even in the very beginning.
  
• Harvest Moon/Rune Factory- Farming is pretty much the main feature of the Harvest Moon/Rune Factory series where the first thing you do is clear up your field of debris and plow the cleared fields. Plowing takes place instantly when you hit the ground in front of you. Seeding the field actually causes you to throw seeds in a 3x3 area around you which harvesting initially limited to one at a time with your current tool but you can upgrade the scythe to the amount where you can mass harvest field in a 5x5 area around you. Both series does input an extra step in the process which is to water your crops every day. Rune Factory did had a mechanics that allow you to queue tasks (which just the tool you are holding) by using the touch screen. I do recall Rune Factory allows you to tame monsters that will help water and harvest for you. A whole squad of max skilled monsters can potentially water/harvest the entire field for you.

[*]Simfarm- I never really touched much on this though I do recall there is crop rotation. Someone that knows more about this game can probably give more information than me.
[/list]

Borrowed concepts
Note- I do not expect all, if any, of these concept to be used in Haven v2.

• In light to Unreal World, something I would like to utilize is giving a significantly longer duration for when crops are ready to be harvested but almost making them more filling. This will slow that the quality race, make food commodity more important, and reduce the amount of intervals you have to perform repetitive actions, perhaps to a degree where you can only afford to trade in surplus instead of having a mass production sweat-shop farm.
• In light to Harvest Moon/Rune Factory, the commonly suggested idea is to make higher scythe have additional benefit such as faster harvesting speed or allowing someone to harvest in an area around them. One suggestion that one of my old villager suggested is to be able to harvest through a field in the same sense that a plow goes through a field.

PS: I did not completely finish what I wanted to say in my mind due to time constraint. For that, I apologize for the hasted post.

[ramones]

And those things were said in this thread, in discussion with you. They would have lied dead, undiscussed if you hadn't kept continuing that conversation. Your cause isn't wrong but I don't understand what you expect us to do.

an issue will be discussed sooner or later. that is what the forums are for, right?
what ive been asking from the very start is to stop talking like everyone bots. or shut ramones up.

U're so funny. In same line you say forums are place do discuss things, then I should shutup. You should just make up your mind... And I'm not the one talking about bots. You are.

[Xcom]

@Tonkyhonk

Do please cut your childish rage behavior and give one solid reason behind your argument. The listed reasons you gave for why you hated botting came down to the simple dislike you have towards botting. No other reasons given other then:

"first of all, the game was not meant to be played by bots"

and

"i do not like to meet bots in game. i do not enjoy playing with bots. i do not like my villagers to be bots, either. (i enjoy watching players too.) and when i get murdered by a player who gained everything by botting up, it really sucks lol"

If you want to be taken seriously you should at least give one simple reason why bots ruin haven. Clearly I disagree with you and think that bots are good for haven. It brings enjoyment to me in both scripting and there use and most likely for anyone else who uses them to. Maybe you should try it out and give your opinion on the matter from both sides of the matter. Having a blind hate towards botting is as foolish as stubbornly trying to hang on to old ways of thinking. Maybe its time to rethink your hate towards bots and try them out.

Also you should be careful how you throw around the word kid. Most likely I'm older then you.

@ Gunnar

First off you didn't answer any of my questions that was directly pointed towards what you posted. Also I dono how I could have missread something when I asked a question directed directly towards you.

Second I don't agree with your statement about how botting have ruined the hunting grounds for the people that live in the areas you describe so its arrogant to state that I first have to agree with you before you can continue the discussion. Bot or no bot your being denied foraging in that area because someone else uses it. If you really want to get rid of them then you should use some convincing. The same way everyone else in this game have to. Try diplomatically solve your problem and if it doesn't work out, use some of that MC and stealth skills you had skilled towards and do something about it. Just because people forage with bots it doesn't automatically give you the right to dictate new server rules over them. The only reason your being denied curios is cause they have moved in and use these areas more efficiently then you are. In the end it all comes down to territorial conflicts and has little to do with bots.