Game Development: Iced Bait

[Jalpha]

Wasn't the intent of red handed at least partially to limit the potential for destruction caused by any individual player by restricting their ability to teleport all over the map? With horses and new boats idk how relevant this is anymore though.

I think the system in place is "fine". There should be an element of strategic planning involved in the decision to commit a crime or not and when to commit a crime.

Y'all are trying to play a strategy game with an FPS mindset. Just slow down.

[Kaios]

Why do we need consequences in our open world sandbox game driven by its player base? Why are you so incapable of doing it yourself that you want the devs to handy cap everyone that is better than you? The consequence should be you leave trackable scents u can use to gank them with not some stupid 1 hour naughty boi time out.

Do you play any other games where the players have such a huge impact on the overall dynamics of interaction and a significant impact on player population to the point where some players are quite literally prevented from enjoying their time? And if so, do these other games have an increasing or decreasing player base? Or is this the only one with that sort of "flavour" to it?

[strpk0]

When the thread starts filling up with people that don't play the game yet somehow magically have "very informed" opinions on it, you know its time to leave. These types of "very informed" discussions are what killed w10-style trading/community engagement, and also resulted in detrimental systems like redhand coming into the game.

As already explained by many, redhand doesn't achieve anything. It doesn't introduce any danger or risk of a pvp encounter, all it does is slightly inconvenience the few people that have the audacity to try to do something fun in the game for once. There are, and will always be, a myriad of options for people to commit crimes and get away with them. Off the top of my head:

• Get into a snekkja/knarr and shift click in a direction for an hour.
• Alternatively, do the same except using a horse.
• Run into a nearby safe palisade and wait out the hour.
• Knock yourself out and log into one of your other 10 characters to continue playing the game while that character heals. And no, don't tell me you can find a solution for this one, but feel free to waste everyone's time trying.

I don't get this weird angle of "think of the poor sprucecaps, you're ruining their gameplay ". This is haven, and while I agree that stomping people out of the game before they have the chance to enjoy it would obviously feel unfair to them, I also feel like a lot of the people who get attacked/griefed/etc are either being mislead by the game into a gameplay loop that will never result in them making progress and gaining more knowledge, or are willingly choosing to play in a such a way that they will always remain a victim in, yes, an open world PvP "perma death" game.

Lets make this example using another game, should Rust implement a 1 hour timer where, whenever you kill someone/raid their base, you have to keep playing to accommodate people who somehow decide what they want to do with the game is farm crops and larp? No? Then why should this be a thing in haven?

I think the game would benefit heavily from explaining to the players the type of experience they're partaking in, maybe even teach them how to deal with PvP encounters so they don't just sit there and die the second someone that knows how to hold the quick barrage key down shows up on their screen. If people want to larp and make themselves vulnerable, why can't they also learn how to defend themselves or run away incase they need to? There's a LOT of roleplaying in games like DayZ that are entirely PvP focused, and yet people over time learn how to have their fun and still be able to defend themselves.

And while I think stats are far less important than many believe (without knowledge of what to do you could have a character with 20k stats and still die just as easily in a potential PvP encounter), there's also a LOT of things in this game that make the stat competition heavily impossible for a casual player, again, off the top of my head:

• Why is salt a thing, dear lord why?
• Why are the FEP/food systems geared in a way such that in order to not screw your character development you literally have to play on alts to do anything energy intensive? WHY is energy still a thing?
• Whales, orcas, and now pelicans (woo!), why are they still a thing? Can you say with a straight face that these aren't just 100% overpowered bot-only content?
• Same goes with pepper and truffles, even though pepper was somewhat tweaked recently, these two still remain heavily bot-only activities that give a GIANT benefit to the few autists that use the mechanics. And no, bum burn doesn't make pepper any less bad, you can still use pepper as an ingredient in certain foods and it happens to make some of the best foods out there, while also not giving you a bum burn wound.
• Why is travel weariness such a handicap for anyone that isn't botting truffles/another source of WIL food? Hey, why is travel weariness even a thing? Remember the economy in legacy based around players teleporting alts to eachother's village idols to trade? Remember how many trade threads there were where newer players could easily gain access to endgame equipment/tools/crops/etc? What happened to that? Oh right, this was the result of a lot of "smart" people jerking themselves off to the idea of "fast travel bad" and making "very informed" posts about it on the forums.

I think if any time should be spent towards these issues it should be spent on making the game more accessible to everyone, helping the game teach people how to be an actual non-0-threat to others who might want to attack them, and also trimming out all of these botfest mechanics that nobody wants to participate in. Not coming up with these stupid redhand mechanics that only make the few players that still want to make drama/pvp/fun happen in a PvP game hate themselves and wish they picked another thing to play instead.

I think the game is overall in a much healthier state when before I attack someone I have to think, wait, is this person about to kick my ass? Instead of, wait, am I about to get put into the timeout corner for one hour? You might argue both of these solutions achieve the same goal, and you'd be wrong in thinking so. Also, as a developer, ask yourself if the solution to people running around slaughtering everyone in sight should literally be "tedium", when instead it could be actual fun and engaging gameplay.

And to those that are making it about "snugglesnail just wants the game to be ez so he can grief people xdd", y'all are cringe and never fail to make it painfully obvious that you simply got griefed and are looking to achieve something very similar to that previous statement.

[SnuggleSnail]

When the thread starts filling up with people that don't play the game yet somehow magically have "very informed" opinions on it, you know its time to leave. These types of "very informed" discussions are what killed w10-style trading/community engagement, and also resulted in detrimental systems like redhand coming into the game.

As already explained by many, redhand doesn't achieve anything. It doesn't introduce any danger or risk of a pvp encounter, all it does is slightly inconvenience the few people that have the audacity to try to do something fun in the game for once. There are, and will always be, a myriad of options for people to commit crimes and get away with them. Off the top of my head:

• Get into a snekkja/knarr and shift click in a direction for an hour.
• Alternatively, do the same except using a horse.
• Run into a nearby safe palisade and wait out the hour.
• Knock yourself out and log into one of your other 10 characters to continue playing the game while that character heals. And no, don't tell me you can find a solution for this one, but feel free to waste everyone's time trying.

I don't get this weird angle of "think of the poor sprucecaps, you're ruining their gameplay ". This is haven, and while I agree that stomping people out of the game before they have the chance to enjoy it would obviously feel unfair to them, I also feel like a lot of the people who get attacked/griefed/etc are either being mislead by the game into a gameplay loop that will never result in them making progress and gaining more knowledge, or are willingly choosing to play in a such a way that they will always remain a victim in, yes, an open world PvP "perma death" game.

Lets make this example using another game, should Rust implement a 1 hour timer where, whenever you kill someone/raid their base, you have to keep playing to accommodate people who somehow decide what they want to do with the game is farm crops and larp? No? Then why should this be a thing in haven?

I think the game would benefit heavily from explaining to the players the type of experience they're partaking in, maybe even teach them how to deal with PvP encounters so they don't just sit there and die the second someone that knows how to hold the quick barrage key down shows up on their screen. If people want to larp and make themselves vulnerable, why can't they also learn how to defend themselves or run away incase they need to? There's a LOT of roleplaying in games like DayZ that are entirely PvP focused, and yet people over time learn how to have their fun and still be able to defend themselves.

And while I think stats are far less important than many believe (without knowledge of what to do you could have a character with 20k stats and still die just as easily in a potential PvP encounter), there's also a LOT of things in this game that make the stat competition heavily impossible for a casual player, again, off the top of my head:

• Why is salt a thing, dear lord why?
• Why are the FEP/food systems geared in a way such that in order to not screw your character development you literally have to play on alts to do anything energy intensive? WHY is energy still a thing?
• Whales, orcas, and now pelicans (woo!), why are they still a thing? Can you say with a straight face that these aren't just 100% overpowered bot-only content?
• Same goes with pepper and truffles, even though pepper was somewhat tweaked recently, these two still remain heavily bot-only activities that give a GIANT benefit to the few autists that use the mechanics. And no, bum burn doesn't make pepper any less bad, you can still use pepper as an ingredient in certain foods and it happens to make some of the best foods out there, while also not giving you a bum burn wound.
• Why is travel weariness such a handicap for anyone that isn't botting truffles/another source of WIL food? Hey, why is travel weariness even a thing? Remember the economy in legacy based around players teleporting alts to eachother's village idols to trade? Remember how many trade threads there were where newer players could easily gain access to endgame equipment/tools/crops/etc? What happened to that? Oh right, this was the result of a lot of "smart" people jerking themselves off to the idea of "fast travel bad" and making "very informed" posts about it on the forums.

I think if any time should be spent towards these issues it should be spent on making the game more accessible to everyone, helping the game teach people how to be an actual non-0-threat to others who might want to attack them, and also trimming out all of these botfest mechanics that nobody wants to participate in. Not coming up with these stupid redhand mechanics that only make the few players that still want to make drama/pvp/fun happen in a PvP game hate themselves and wish they picked another thing to play instead.

I think the game is overall in a much healthier state when before I attack someone I have to think, wait, is this person about to kick my ass? Instead of, wait, am I about to get put into the timeout corner for one hour? You might argue both of these solutions achieve the same goal, and you'd be wrong in thinking so. Also, as a developer, ask yourself if the solution to people running around slaughtering everyone in sight should literally be "tedium", when instead it could be actual fun and engaging gameplay.

And to those that are making it about "snugglesnail just wants the game to be ez so he can grief people xdd", y'all are cringe and never fail to make it painfully obvious that you simply got griefed and are looking to achieve something very similar to that previous statement.

Literally all of this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you play any other games where the players have such a huge impact on the overall dynamics of interaction and a significant impact on player population to the point where some players are quite literally prevented from enjoying their time?

DayZ, Rust, World of Warcraft: Ascension, Tibia, Old School Runescape: Deadman Mode, Mortal Online, 200 different Ultima clones, EVE, Linkrealms, and Unturned off the top of my head.

Out of these the only one that rly has a timeout/gay baby jail mechanic that's just waiting is DMM. It's only like 5 minutes and actually has some impact on gameplay other than wasting your time. You can even still logout and do it later if you need to take a shit, tho. I can tell you FOR SURE if you tried to add a redhand timer to any of these games people would go fucking apeshit ballistic. I think the only reason nobody went apeshit ballistic in hafen over it is because it was added in world 8, and everybody was busy going apeshit ballistic over other stuff.

[kiddoinc]

How many of those games let you kill another player permanently? Not the same comparison maybe?

The argument that if you disagree then you must not play is just silly.

[SnuggleSnail]

The death penalties in about half of those games are WAYYYYYY harsher than Havens, and it's WAYYYYYYY harder to die in haven than any of those games.

[kiddoinc]

lmao death in other games is a gold repair bill. Sure lets encourage griefing harder actually, why not hand out some reward upon murdering hearthlings while we are at it.

[SnuggleSnail]

LMFAO

"GUYS I JUST LOST AN ELYSIAN I COULD'VE SOLD FOR 5K USD"

vs.

"Guys I just died on a titan and lost 40% of its feps, which is 20% of its stats, which is like 5% of its effectiveness. It will take me a few hours of resource gathering and a week of time-gates to replace this..."

[kiddoinc]

LMFAO

"GUYS I JUST LOST AN ELYSIAN I COULD'VE SOLD FOR 5K USD"

vs.

"Guys I just died on a titan and lost 40% of its feps, which is 20% of its stats, which is like 5% of its effectiveness. It will take me maybe a week of very, very casual grinding to rebuild this"

"Wipe 200 on hardmode boss so and so, lets go back for another hundred wipes for world 100 guys."

So that means you should be able to grief with impunity? I think its a waste of time to wait for a tree to grow 5 real life days. Make that instant as well since we should get instant gratification.

I have to take a shit in a minute, maybe i shouldnt dick around and be a criminal? Its like when people ask for the removal of the screen affects from doing opium and the response is "dont do drugs"

Imo pvp and griefing are separate and PVP needs a solution but hopefully one that doesnt encourage more griefing.

[dafels]

[*]Why is travel weariness such a handicap for anyone that isn't botting truffles/another source of WIL food? Hey, why is travel weariness even a thing? Remember the economy in legacy based around players teleporting alts to eachother's village idols to trade? Remember how many trade threads there were where newer players could easily gain access to endgame equipment/tools/crops/etc? What happened to that? Oh right, this was the result of a lot of "smart" people jerking themselves off to the idea of "fast travel bad" and making "very informed" posts about it on the forums.[/list]

Exactly, easy fast travel was a thing that made the game more fun and less tedious for everybody. And it is a huge thing. The game is still suffering from the Inner Party circlejerk from which loftar/jorb got ideas on how the new game should work back in the day.