Prelude: World 12

[reticent]

@reticent
You're not a "power gamer"
The power gamers don't find the mechanic fun
Irrespective of this mechanics, the power gamers can do w/e they want to you, so it will have no effect on you

Genuinely the only reason I can see for you holding this opinion is wanting other to have less fun out of spite

All fun mechanics become less fun as they're optimized and industrialized to hell. Fun comes from applying your human instincts to situations and making progress, figuring things out, succeeding. Anti-fun comes from jettisoning your human instincts for the sake of maximal efficiency and throughput, and stretching the limits of your patience, sanity and whatever brain systems are responsible for feeling rewarded. Wouldn't it be most optimal if you didn't find credo grind boring in the first place?

Credos are fun to do on a couple of characters and you get meaningful increases in power and you are rewarded for planning, perseverance and exploration.
They get a lot less fun when you need to do it 20 times, because if you don't, you'd be worse than someone who does it 20 times, because if they don't, they'd be worse than you.

The reason Jorbtar thought credos were a good idea was from going by the logic of the first approach. The reason why you feel they should be made irrelevant is due to the outcomes of the second. But is this good enough of a reason?

I think I do have some resentment, yes. Though it's more like a generalized wistfulness. Not because I want to BE you (e.g. a powerplayer), but because I don't want the game I'm playing to necessarily be the game you're playing. And I don't think making credos pointless is a fair compromise here. I find them fun, and worth pursuing. For the journey and for the payoff at the end!

I mean, credos make COMPLETE sense in a single-player game. They're akin to perks, locked behind game-world interactions, rather than getting more stats and more exp. I have always found that fun. It's only the multiplayer context that ruins a perfectly valid mechanic, and only for a certain type of player.

[Alfahir]

Looks like I will take a 4 month vacation from the game then. It's a bit sad to lose all of this, but progress demands it I guess.

[pimotimo]

It would be nice to also see some new moves for combat, makes deck building more interesting. Right now its pretty much the same and we have tons of moves that are not being used at all. Any plan on changing that jorb?

[Zepar72]

@reticent
You're not a "power gamer"
The power gamers don't find the mechanic fun
Irrespective of this mechanics, the power gamers can do w/e they want to you, so it will have no effect on you

Genuinely the only reason I can see for you holding this opinion is wanting other to have less fun out of spite

All fun mechanics become less fun as they're optimized and industrialized to hell. Fun comes from applying your human instincts to situations and making progress, figuring things out, succeeding. Anti-fun comes from jettisoning your human instincts for the sake of maximal efficiency and throughput, and stretching the limits of your patience, sanity and whatever brain systems are responsible for feeling rewarded. Wouldn't it be most optimal if you didn't find credo grind boring in the first place?

Credos are fun to do on a couple of characters and you get meaningful increases in power and you are rewarded for planning, perseverance and exploration.
They get a lot less fun when you need to do it 20 times, because if you don't, you'd be worse than someone who does it 20 times, because if they don't, they'd be worse than you.

The reason Jorbtar thought credos were a good idea was from going by the logic of the first approach. The reason why you feel they should be made irrelevant is due to the outcomes of the second. But is this good enough of a reason?

I think I do have some resentment, yes. Though it's more like a generalized wistfulness. Not because I want to BE you (e.g. a powerplayer), but because I don't want the game I'm playing to necessarily be the game you're playing. And I don't think making credos pointless is a fair compromise here. I find them fun, and worth pursuing. For the journey and for the payoff at the end!

I mean, credos make COMPLETE sense in a single-player game. They're akin to perks, locked behind game-world interactions, rather than getting more stats and more exp. I have always found that fun. It's only the multiplayer context that ruins a perfectly valid mechanic, and only for a certain type of player.

Reading this, i'm a bit more into the current credo system. Some of them do feel unfair, as i've stopped playing last world after canceling 20 quest for Nomad, yet fisher quest were quite challanging, in not-so-terrible way. I had to makes notes where i can find what fish, and engage with other players in trading fish and informations. It was both fun and made the game more social for me. The one problem i agree with most other people is, too many credos require the basic 3 credos - why would a tailor or potter need the farmer credo? I think quarryman and farmer should drop to level 1 credos, and after that they could combine to other, more advanced credos.

I kinda like the new combat strenght calculation, as i've always hated alting in any games. By lessening the impact of pure stat difference, maybe it will be possible to use your regular char to defend yourself, instead of making a bunch of alts for that. Yet MC / UA are pretty 100/0 skills - you either make a char with only that skill, or you don't take it at all. It makes combat to be 100% alt job, which makes it unaccessable for more casual players.

[VDZ]

Guys, we survived world 5, 6 and 7, where any palisade was far more vulnerable than it would be in w12. My experience as a hermit in those worlds tells me that you're not going to be raided beyond the early world unless you piss someone off or look like you've got interesting loot.

[*] Resource/skill cost to inspect claims.

If botting to check when the vulnerability window is active is undesireable, then doesn't this imply you want a large portion of the siege system -knowing when to attack- to be luck based? I feel like given the stakes luck being a relevant factor seems undesireable

Rather, having a cost associated with checking means you'll focus your attacks on the most desirable targets, instead of wandering around everywhere looking for a vulnerable claim. It should encourage faction rivalries and discourage screwing over random noobs.

[Yaken]

Remove quests.
Remove visitor.
Revive palibashers.
Ram in the bush was the best siege mechanichs ever. Period.

Great idea, +1

[ffsfiftyseven]

Guys, we survived world 5, 6 and 7, where any palisade was far more vulnerable than it would be in w12. My experience as a hermit in those worlds tells me that you're not going to be raided beyond the early world unless you piss someone off or look like you've got interesting loot.

You are most probably right. People are discussing new siege system as if every hermit will get raided which is not the case.
If checking for raid window will require resources it would bump the siege cost hopefully to an extent where raiding random hermits will be a huge net loss.

[fallout]

Remove quests.
Remove visitor.
Revive palibashers.
Ram in the bush was the best siege mechanichs ever. Period.

Great idea, +1

"Rams|Catapults on screen= 3"

Hmm, guess I should rotate my camera. Or get around to writing the code that allows auto removal of said siege, such that to never be raided I simply leave my computer on..

[Fostik]

Remove quests.
Remove visitor.
Revive palibashers.
Ram in the bush was the best siege mechanichs ever. Period.

Great idea, +1

Im so glad, when someone who not played since world 7, and also someone with 15 posts have an opinion devs should be reckoned with.

[SaltyCrate]

credos

I 100% agree with this guy. I can only wish people chanting "credos suck" put half of this effort into their posts.

@reticent
You're not a "power gamer"
The power gamers don't find the mechanic fun
Irrespective of this mechanics, the power gamers can do w/e they want to you, so it will have no effect on you

I can be considered power gamer at times. At the beginning of this world I had 10 credos completed by the time average hermit probably had 3 and average faction player had 7. Do I think that credo system can be improved here and there? For sure. But that said I do not share sentiment that credos are completely "broken", "not fun", "must be fixed" etc, and I find them fun enough. So don't generalize your opinion that easily.