Prelude: World 12

[Yorla]

Jorb, Loftar, you know I love you guys, right? And I love the game. But with impeding changes it kinda look like the end of the journey for me. Why? Here we go:

- Pointing out once again: with spiraling removed, quality growth of tools will be defined only by fuel (coal, wood, mulch) and with crops capped it will probably make lower underground levels unreachable. You gotta balance that.
- This siege and claim defense mechanic looks hostile for casual players as it was mentioned above many times. At very least make it obvious for players who don't read every single post on the forum, describe on claim poles or in skill list, anywhere inside the game! As for ideas, I kinda like that one with the inside keep or inbuit layered protection. And you mentioned archery towers, but building them requires, correct me if I'm wrong, siege skill to be bought out. Obviously raiders will have that, what about hermits?
- Credos. People curse them, but still doing because bonuses are tasty and getting them adds meaning to the play. They are good in my opinion, but have to be tweaked for seasons - being unable to progress with for example gemhunter credo due to absence of poppy cap's seeds during winter is absurd. Not to mention farmer's or even forager's credos in winter or spring. I haven't got all life to finish a credo you know. And I know many players who would agree with me.
- Dungeons. Please, remove that epilepsy-igniting terrible screenshake at the end of dungeons - the worst design decision ever. Seriously.
- Fishing. During W9 and W10 I fished out some quality tools from the water or washed ashore and, oh boy, that was a joy! But never happened in W11. What have you done to the loot table? I don't believe people stopped to drop their old stuff in waters - it's your doing!
- PvP. Please, oh, please! don't screw over the majority of player base in favor of those 10-20 who plays for that kind of fun! At least make "blueshielded" (players with murder mode off) victims unlootable!

Instead of torturing that unbalancable siege mechanic, you could add some other activities for no-bots. Events, dungeons, disasters... How about forest fire with wild animals running in waves and fires need to be put out manually and people need to cooperate for that? Or troll outbreak above ground at some mountain cave entrance? Or earthquake damaging buildings and causing caveins... (Don't hit me, they probably will never implement it ).

Also you saw what people can do with current limited abilities, I mean shoe-ball games, chess boards, weelbarrow racing labyrinths, paintings and museums. Why not to add something more for peaceful creativity? I don't know... baskets for hand-ball games? Wearable bags for racing? Fireworks? Breedable flowering bushes? Selective breeding for "just cosmetic" flowers? If you like, I can post those ideas in details in corresponding topic.

[Lunarius_Haberdash]

So far I'm loving all the changes... EXCEPT the Seamark change. I didn't like that realms could cross ocean tiles to begin with, and now we get ugly seamark spam to go with it. I do agree the previous method had some pretty serious issues, I'm not sure this was the proper solution.

I'd rather see the ability to set up a Seamark on a shore, as usual. Then have the ability to set up a colonial post on another shore with a cost in authority/materials relative to the distance from the nearest seamark for that community *and* the distance to the Coronation Stone. The further you get from home, the more expensive it is to maintain.

I'd also like to see the ability to cede a portion of a realm to another ruler, a feudal style fealty system (that includes the option to revolt/withdraw from the ruling realm), and has benefits sufficient to make this a worthwhile option for both subject and ruler.

I do not understand why dev want to screw 95% of playerbase with that new siege... sell the game or release the game lisence to public so that community could go their own way if they do t care what majority wants.

Go the fuuuuuuuck away with that entitled bullshit. It's their game, of course, they can do what they want. Bugger off.

[Detharon]

The siege mechanic changes seem terrible.

I don't consider myself a casual player, but there's no way that I'm going to play the game for 8 hours straight defending my base. That'd be super boring.
As an alternative, I could take the risk and possibly lose everything. That doesn't sound good either.
Or I can make a bot that will be online during that window and will notify me when someone is doing something nasty on my plot. Much better.

I'd say that, as a rule of thumb, if you add a new mechanic that needs to be circumvented by botting or having alts, then it's simply a bad idea.

[tyrtix]

me, generally happy about the updates and feel they're mostly good. I worry a bit for the short timer for low level sieges systems but otherwise seems good.
Waiting for the new world!

[Gutharr]

So far I'm loving all the changes... EXCEPT the Seamark change. I didn't like that realms could cross ocean tiles to begin with, and now we get ugly seamark spam to go with it. I do agree the previous method had some pretty serious issues, I'm not sure this was the proper solution.

I'd rather see the ability to set up a Seamark on a shore, as usual. Then have the ability to set up a colonial post on another shore with a cost in authority/materials relative to the distance from the nearest seamark for that community *and* the distance to the Coronation Stone. The further you get from home, the more expensive it is to maintain.

I'd also like to see the ability to cede a portion of a realm to another ruler, a feudal style fealty system (that includes the option to revolt/withdraw from the ruling realm), and has benefits sufficient to make this a worthwhile option for both subject and ruler.

Awesome ideas imo!

[MagicManICT]

The reason Jorbtar thought credos were a good idea was from going by the logic of the first approach. The reason why you feel they should be made irrelevant is due to the outcomes of the second. But is this good enough of a reason?

When developing multiplayer games, you would love to design for the 99%, but if you don't design for the 1%, you'll have a game nobody loves because of all the exploits and abuses of power. The 1% will be enabled just by having a game they can play together. Things like credos that give a clear advantage to those that have over those that don't creates a very unstable, unbalanced environment. Credos don't need to go, just the PvP advantages. If there need to be advantages like swimming faster, etc, then they need to be brought into the game in some other form... Personally, I think such advantages just don't even belong in a multiplayer game, especially one where open PvP is involved.

[ctopolon4]

pls fix endless spawn in ant dungeons, its looks not friendly for the newbie dungeon

[Zepar72]

pls fix endless spawn in ant dungeons, its looks not friendly for the newbie dungeon

I find it okay - it's easy to overcome, IF you know what to do. I think the information could be a bit more obvious, as dungeons for newbs are really confusing.

What i would like to see, is return of expensive-to-repair mine supports. Without spiraling, mining will be more important. Getting better ores mean better metal. With how supports are, it's just turning one bar of metal into 3-4 bars, using a bot. I really would like to put manual mining "back" to game. That would also fix those horribly ugly underground bases. That way players would be also forces to prospect with root, instead of just botting endless tunnels.

[jock]

pls fix endless spawn in ant dungeons, its looks not friendly for the newbie dungeon

I find it okay - it's easy to overcome, IF you know what to do. I think the information could be a bit more obvious, as dungeons for newbs are really confusing.

What i would like to see, is return of expensive-to-repair mine supports. Without spiraling, mining will be more important. Getting better ores mean better metal. With how supports are, it's just turning one bar of metal into 3-4 bars, using a bot. I really would like to put manual mining "back" to game. That would also fix those horribly ugly underground bases. That way players would be also forces to prospect with root, instead of just botting endless tunnels.

Just no

[reticent]

The reason Jorbtar thought credos were a good idea was from going by the logic of the first approach. The reason why you feel they should be made irrelevant is due to the outcomes of the second. But is this good enough of a reason?

When developing multiplayer games, you would love to design for the 99%, but if you don't design for the 1%, you'll have a game nobody loves because of all the exploits and abuses of power. The 1% will be enabled just by having a game they can play together. Things like credos that give a clear advantage to those that have over those that don't creates a very unstable, unbalanced environment. Credos don't need to go, just the PvP advantages.

Valid point, which is why you design neither for the 99%, nor for the 1%, but try to come up with an ecosystem in which these players feel motivated to participate.

In this case, I don't think credo combat advantages are a problem for the ecosystem. Think of them as sources of character power. Other sources would be gear quality, learning points, FEP. Those sources are based on in-game industries, while credo power-sources are somewhat decoupled (e.g. I don't need titan stats, or highest q flax to have a scholar alt. I can get gardener with 10q pots). As was established before, I can't exactly compete with someone who has 8 scholar alts, and that's alright. Neither can I compete with someone who has a massive, and automated FEP production, LP production, or spiraled (though that's getting removed) metal. And that also isn't a complaint, it's just a fact of the game, which I don't actually have a problem with.

But the point is, when you say

Things like credos that give a clear advantage to those that have over those that don't

Well, so do all those other things. And I reckon if you have higher quality B12 and armor, more FEP, more LP, you also have a clear advantage over me. And it's only if we were equal in these terms, would things like traversing ridges faster matter the most.
And if you have a larger, more automated industry set up, that's also a clear advantage.
And having credos that essentially act as multipliers on your industry, and therefore multipliers on FEP, LP and qualities, is also an advantage.
So is playing with others, rather than being a hermit.
So is playing since the start of the world, as opposed to mid-way.
So is playing more. So is questing.
So is knowing the game better.

None of these seem like a problem, and I like credos because they let me meaningfully develop a character by questing, exploring, searching and finding stuff, than eating a lot and keeping study desk filled. Remove the carrot on a stick, and that's one less reason for me to log in today. May be the game will be balanced (more like, homogeneous, since we're cutting off a whole dimension of character development), but also less interesting to play.

I don't actually know the exact problem the 1% has with credos, or how it looks from their perspective. Saying they make the game unbalanced is not very meaningful for above mentioned reasons, and besides being "le 1%" is in itself unbalanced and unbalancing to the rest of the game. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing! Is it disliking the fact that credos make you do legwork for the bonuses? Is it having to grind them on too many characters? Why is the pursuit of a good Q anvil a good mechanic, but training up a blacksmith character a bad one? Why is having high FEP/LP/Q good, but being able to swim a bit faster, bad?