Game Development: The Danger Zone

[jorb]

Now you have to focus on getting players back

I don't agree with that. I think we should focus on making the game good, quite simply. Being outcome oriented is rarely a good thing.

[loftar]

Siege tower, instant build (maybe a few hour dry time) incredibly bloody slow to push and acts as a ladder to jump over walls and only designed that you can only take that which you can put into inventory.

We have discussed similar things ourselves (wall scaling and such), but one of the problems is that if you don't have the ability to destroy things once inside, people will just line their walls with piles of wood or whatever cheap thing you can't past without destroying it. Contrariwise, if you can destroy things, then obviously walls are just completely meaningless and anyone is liable to destruction at any time. The middle ground between these options is less than obvious.

[Ethan]

When there is immediately another interval after the previous, it is then advantageous to perform that action as soon as possible.

If that were the only problem, though, then it would be easily fixed by "buffering" actions. So that, for instance, the number of actions you can perform increases once every X hours, and then you can burst them when you want to.

I think if you add an actions "pool" (that has an action added every X hours), that can be spent on the actions described in the "Some thoughts on Siege" thread. I would be interested in trying that.

[loftar]

Instead, I think if players knew from the get go that the next world will not be an easy one and will require some serious effort to be sucesful in, they would be able to see it coming. (Instead of just getting screwed over 4 months into a world all of the sudden and losing all of their progress).

Perhaps, but I think this also relates to what kind of game we want Haven to be. I, for one, don't really want to make a game that's all about PvP.

[pedorlee]

Now you have to focus on getting players back

I don't agree with that. I think we should focus on making the game good, quite simply. Being outcome oriented is rarely a good thing.

Establishing a good balance and once the game is atractive enough doing the proper pubilicity its the right way IMO. Making evey corner of this game impossible to abuse its non reachable. Head on making this as more atractive as its possible to everybody. The market is your goal, living this dream is your objective as long as it gives you an acceptable incoming. This comunity loves your work and try to makes it better. Dont limit yourselves with the negative feedback of those who try to abuse any possible mechanic. Have a look at other succesfull games and open your eyes. This game used to rock, now money seems to be a cliff. Make it worth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEV-OkzaSts

[springyb]

If you're giving a time window to the defender to be able to destroy a ram, why not add a siege weapon that a defender can build that gives a similar time window to the attacker? I think the main complaint is that the attacker has the initiative and the defender can only respond.

Like a ballista of sorts that can safely shoot flaming bolts from behind the walls at the ram once every x hours and catch it on fire, and if it's not put out in x amount of hours it's destroyed. And if the attacker puts out the fire then the drying time is shortened since the heat makes the glue dry faster? Or something mechanically similar.

I also agree that siege weapons having a pool of actions is better than time windows.

Now you have to focus on getting players back which obviously means giving them something to do that isn't a fucking grindy boring chore fest.

I think balancing siege and making so the only viable targets aren't newbies with a palisade will do a lot to retain players. A lot of genuine new players have quit after their palisade gets bashed and they log into a destroyed base. The game needs new players just as much as it needs old players coming back.

It's not fair to the devs to complain about lack of content when a majority of players use exploits or bugs to progress much faster than they intended us to. I mean even our stickied newbie guide teaches players that exploiting animal AI on cliffs is the way to kill them.

[strpk0]

Establishing a good balance and once the game is atractive enough doing the proper pubilicity its the right way IMO. Making evey corner of this game impossible to abuse its non reachable. Head on making this as more atractive as its possible to everybody. The market is your goal, living this dream is your objective as long as it gives you an acceptable incoming. This comunity loves your work and try to makes it better. Dont limit yourselves with the negative feedback of those who try to abuse any possible mechanic. Have a look at other succesfull games and open your eyes. This game used to rock, now money seems to be a cliff. Make it worth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEV-OkzaSts

This. I personally don't find myself putting much thought into the intricate inner workings of a game if I am just outright enjoying it.
I will always be a supporter of updates that just make the game fun, and help me and my friends maintain a steady interest in it (charter stones and f2p holiday as examples). Let the hardcore PvP and siege be for the tryhards that like waving their d*cks around in the forums to figure out.

[Gordon]

The curios thing was an real good update and most of the people that I know really liked that one and they were dissapointed because of the revert of it. Most of the people that loved PvP/raiding aspect of the game have already quit the game, so I don't think siege update is on the top priority right now, but I don't want to demotivate you guys working on it. The top priority in my opinion right now is: Make foraging/hunting actually a thing, remove fate and replace it with something better(I don't get why this wasn't done months ago already, because some did quit because of it and it is one of the most useless things on the code.) Anyways, I really hope for improvement in the future, I really do, thank you for this great game.

Another suggestion: I think there should be an subforums under Critique & Ideas, where you would post about the "huge" features you're soon to implement, so you could discuss about them with people and see how people respond to your ideas.

[strpk0]

The curios thing was an real good update and most of the people that I know really liked that one and they were dissapointed because of the revert of it. Most of the people that loved PvP/raiding aspect of the game have already quit the game, so I don't think siege update is on the top priority right now, but I don't want to demotivate you guys working on it. The top priority in my opinion right now is: Make foraging/hunting actually a thing, remove fate and replace it with something better(I don't get why this wasn't done months ago already, because some did quit because of it and it is one of the most useless things on the code.) Anyways, I really hope for improvement in the future, I really do, thank you for this great game.

Another suggestion: I think there should be an subforums under Critique & Ideas, where you would post about the "huge" features you're soon to implement, so you could discuss about them with people and see how people respond to your ideas.

And all of this. (I know I'm not adding anything to the conversation, but there's no +1 button or anything so this is the only way to show that I agree)

[LadyV]

@Jorb & Loftar

The reason a siege system is so complex is you can not introduce one thing and expect it to be fixed. For every attack needs a counter. In in all fairness one can and should be able to kill or hold off many with proper preparedness. A lone archer in a tower with arrow slits should be able to cut down several enemy before they can breech walls. Murder holes, boiling pots of oil, spike traps, moats.... You are focusing on attack only and have only done so so far. The issue is in balance not new attacks.

If you want new rams or siege weapons also provide new defences to counter such at the same time. Don't break the system with out a solution. All we will see is vendetta raids that breech walls and whole factions are destroyed and all you can do after ward is hear complaints and you eliminated players form the unbalance. Just balance your options is all I'm saying.

The best solution is fairness and balance. No it won't satisfy the one who want quick unbalanced raids but that is fine. You have to serve the whole in game making. Everyone gets something and everyone is in a balanced situation. Yes groups can and should get advantages but the advantages are already in place no one has to add to them. The ability to work together to gather materials and build things quickly is enough. If a group wishes to raid fine. However this does not mean it should be any easier. If you wish to ram a brick wall you should need people to man the ram, then break wall, and finally assault the place.

I think quite elegantly siege should be one of those things you must have enough people to do. If you do great, work your war. However no bonus' should ever come in to play beyond numbers. Allow players to out skill, plan, and maneuver each other. The greatest opponent is another Human.

As for a system that is more fair for all, abstract siege. There are many players from all over and on at different times. Expecting people to be able to be on for a raid can be a challenge at times for even factions. Make a system that works for all. Also make that system fair so it's not an easy thing to do. It's not easy but war rarely ever is.