Prelude: World 12

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby Yorla » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:59 am

SaltyCrate wrote:
Yorla wrote:
jorb wrote:So... remove siege entirely?

Separate server for pvpers.

Everyone is PvPer.


What I meant is the separate space for those who want to play around sieges and fortresses. Of course even with pvp combat completely disabled there still be possibility for griefing which can be count as pvp. Although stretching the system to fit desires of both who wants perfect protection and who wants risks - seems as possible as squeezing "Belaz" wheel into a purse. What's why different instances or servers could be the answer.
And here I should apologize for my spelling... But I won't! Deal with it :P
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby DDDsDD999 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:08 am

jorb wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:Because you haven't fixed all the broken shit that makes pvp a stat grinding, credo requiring, Zerg encouraging nightmare.


There is certainly a real attempt here to do something about the stat grinding, at least. What are your other complaints again? Knarr combat, coracles/swimming?

I am interested to see how the stat thing plays out.

There's been huge out-of-combat mobility creep since legacy (knarrs, horses) so fights become delay until your group has more people so one of you can go on a horse and steal their speed buffs and keep them in aggro, while the gang chases and kitos them down. In legacy you could turn around and pull off some quick plays to down someone chasing you too zealously, this combat system really can't do that.

The hard to get in-combat shit like pearl diver, and rusalka boots are all the more powerful because of the coracle nerf. Strider credo's running stamina thing is still obnoxious.

But coracles are still pretty much required if you don't have both pearl diver and rusalka boots, so we still need to dedicate a ton of inventory space to it. So we still have the issue of running out of water/food from getting chased forever, see the above out-of-mobility creep.

There's a ton of obtuse rng mechanics like right clicking kritters with hunting credo and bunny slippers that are retarded.

Edit: just saw in discord people complaining about the op sleds that have no counterplay besides not playing, and all you said was "I don't mind there's dangerous seasons" before rambling about some stupid warm clothes larp stuff
Last edited by DDDsDD999 on Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby dvs » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:19 am

jorb wrote:
borka wrote:What i see is that Devs like to honor bullies that get moms money to buy subs and RMT chars ... i'm too f***cking old and my time runs to fast for such (and while i'm having a work life i don't consider myself casual) ...


So... remove siege entirely?


i did suggest 2 servers, let the larpers larp let the pvpers kill each other.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby pimotimo » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:30 am

DDDsDD999 wrote:
jorb wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:Because you haven't fixed all the broken shit that makes pvp a stat grinding, credo requiring, Zerg encouraging nightmare.


There is certainly a real attempt here to do something about the stat grinding, at least. What are your other complaints again? Knarr combat, coracles/swimming?

I am interested to see how the stat thing plays out.

There's been huge out-of-combat mobility creep since legacy (knarrs, horses) so fights become delay until your group has more people so one of you can go on a horse and steal their speed buffs and keep them in aggro, while the gang chases and kitos them down. In legacy you could turn around and pull off some quick plays to down someone chasing you too zealously, this combat system really can't do that.

The hard to get in-combat shit like pearl diver, and rusalka boots are all the more powerful because of the coracle nerf. Strider credo's running stamina thing is still obnoxious.

But coracles are still pretty much required if you don't have both pearl diver and rusalka boots, so we still need to dedicate a ton of inventory space to it. So we still have the issue of running out of water/food from getting chased forever, see the above out-of-mobility creep.

There's a ton of obtuse rng mechanics like right clicking kritters with hunting credo and bunny slippers that are retarded.

Have you been in any fight last world? I've been fighting in the last 2 worlds and besides knaars, i dont think horses are any problem in pvp, you can raw hide or dismount the rider... in fact varely anyone uses horses when fightning. Strider credo mandatory to have it completed for pvp and i guess its one of the reasons i dont like that perk.. its too big of an advantage to have compared to someone who hasnt finished it yet. You can also do quick plays with this combat system, combat meditation allows you to pull some good moves if ur opponent is not prepared, tho maybe in legacy it was better (just saying it is still possible to do)
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby DDDsDD999 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:39 am

pimotimo wrote:Have you been in any fight last world? I've been fighting in the last 2 worlds and besides knaars, i dont think horses are any problem in pvp, you can raw hide or dismount the rider... in fact varely anyone uses horses when fightning. Strider credo mandatory to have it completed for pvp and i guess its one of the reasons i dont like that perk.. its too big of an advantage to have compared to someone who hasnt finished it yet. You can also do quick plays with this combat system, combat meditation allows you to pull some good moves if ur opponent is not prepared, tho maybe in legacy it was better (just saying it is still possible to do)

The horse is used to get in front of, steal speed buffs and cut the person running off, you mongol. It happens every fight, I literally saw it happen in one of the end of world fights yesterday. And good luck combat medding someone chasing you while they can freely defend.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby Redlaw » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:42 am

Waiting for the best PVPer to be someone in spruce cap lvl gear, this has been someone i have been waiting for since the gilding change t clothing, so far seen more people quit over it then nit.... oddly iys already been proven wrong yet no one has owned up..... so poss-ably someone will be the late game psruce cap in epic gear this world.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby Resture » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:51 am

I am excited for the more combat oriented world. I do agree the window should be reduced to around 4 hours for siege, though.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby SnuggleSnail » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:59 am

I think the UA/MC being anything within a factor of two being equal leaves too much room for people to not really develop their character significantly and still be effective(100 UA is 500kLP, 200 UA is 2000kLP)

Counter suggestion: if your green UA is lower than your opponents white UA, your green UA is counted and their white UA is counted. If your green is 100 less than their white, your green is counted verse their white. if your green is higher than their white, but lower than their green you're counted as having the same stats.

This would leave most people who try having fairly comparable UA/MC. Keep in mind it's not absurdly difficult to make a set with +1.1-1.3k UA right now, and top green UA is somewhere around 3.5-4k, so somebody with 1.2k UA and a really good set would be equal to, or not much worse off than the top stated people in the world.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby Hadehariast » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:14 am

For Melee and Unarmed combat, fighters within a factor 2 of eachother in relevant stats are for all intents and purposes considered to be exact equals.


Would the use of a curve ultimately work better than the use of a factor of two?

For instance, at Skill 10, the factor could be 5.0. As skill levels rise, the factor could decrease, until it reached a lower value (like 2.0). This might encourage more early-game PvP, as fewer players will have been able to "pull away" to the extent that they're out-of-range of another faction's fighters.

Another interesting iteration could be the curve functioning like a parabola, where the factor would begin to increase again after a certain skill value-- thus making it more difficult for "titans" to pull away entirely from the rest of the player base. That skill value could perhaps be a dynamic value, like the average skill of the top 25% of players with the relevant combat skill.

SIEGE
----------------

Village & Personal Claims, in addition to their authority upkeep, now have a "Power Level", ranging from 0 to 5.
Increasing the "Power Level" of a claim is initiated by clicking the "Charge" button in the claim's interface.
Once a "Power Level" increase has been initiated, there is a 24 RL hour delay, during which nothing happens.
After the 24 hour period concludes, there is an 8 RL hour weakness window during which the claim's "Power Level" counts as zero.
After the 8 hour period concludes, the claim's "Power Level" is increased by one.
The claim naturally loses one "Power Level" over the course of two RL weeks.
The "Power Level" of a claim, finally, determines how long Battering Rams need to dry before they can attack the various wall types on the claim.
Drying time for Battering Rams per "Power Level" & Wall Type:
Level 0: Palisades: 20min, Brick Walls: 1h
Level 1: Palisades: 3h, Brick Walls: 4h
Level 2: Palisades: 6h, Brick Walls: 8h
Level 3: Palisades: 15h, Brick Walls: 20h
Level 4: Palisades: 24h, Brick Walls: 32h
Level 5: Palisades: 24h, Brick Walls: 32h


There seem to be two common themes running through the complaints about the new siege system-- first, that the system used in W10 is regarded with some degree of positive nostalgia; and second, that the 'punishment' for potentially recharging your claim (and dropping to Level 0) is too excessive.

I would propose the following potential changes to the system:

1) The "weakness window" created by recharging the claim opens up a claim shield mechanic, similar to what existed in W10.
2) The "weakness window" would create an immediate, attackable claim shield at the current "Power Level" of the village.
3) Rather than "Power Level" determining how long battering rams need to dry, "Power Level" determines the length of time that the claim shield remains open to damage. The lower the "Power Level", the longer the claim shield remains open to damage. The higher the "Power Level", the smaller the window of opportunity for attackers. By way of example,I'd present the following values for each level:

Level 1: 32 HRs
Level 2: 24 HRs
Level 3: 16 HRs
Level 4: 8 HRs
Level 5: 4 HRs

4) Following the completion of the "weakness window" there would be a cost to repair the claim shield before the next "Power Level" was enabled. This could be handled in a few ways-- either a percentage of village members' LP is skimmed "off the top" when any items being studied are completed, until the repair was complete; or individuals could sacrifice LP (or maybe Experience) as part of a hearth ritual to repair the damage.

I believe this might encourage the use of sieges in general, for the following reasons:
1) A failed siege can still result in damage to the defenders (deprivation of LP or Experience). This moves away from siege being a zero-sum action.
2) A successful defence is more likely, given the way shields worked in W10. However, there are still negative consequences for the defender which make repeated sieges more likely to eventually succeed (loss of LP or Experience means falling behind in "the race").
3) If villages are more likely to repel a siege, it delays (or perhaps even prevents) the point where one faction becomes so dominant that other factions no longer compete, and then quit.

I am not a PvP'er or a member of a village or faction, but I hope that these ideas may at least encourage some constructive discussion about changes to the siege mechanics that could result in a more enjoyable game for a wider range of players.
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Re: Prelude: World 12

Postby LadyV » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:55 am

Ascending power makes a claim weak... So much for the concept of stability. Not sure I like it.
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