Prelude: Happy New World!

[Kirche]

As of 2, then explain to me how pvp is not competitive in Haven?

Can you explain to me why permadeath makes it competitive?

[Avu]

The argument for core identity is a decent one however it is not the only thing that attracts people to the game (even though a lot of the ones still playing do value it however they are not that many realistically speaking).

You say that but you don't have any proof. This would have to be monitored and it wasn't in any way. I know a lot of people though that value permadeath and found this game thanks to it.

So if it's not permadeath and unrestricted pvp that made the playerbase so low what other reasons are there for it? Is it a shit game? An unfun one? The graphics are so bad nobody can stomach them? (minecraft, dwarf fortress)

[Atamzsiktrop]

Dark Souls is not very forgiving for casuals, and while it's an AAA title, it still shows there's a lot of audience looking for hardcore games. Maybe what's the cause of low player base of Haven is not permadeath or the game being bad or whatever, but bad marketing. I imagine there's around 600 players daily, release on Steam could make it 2x that.

[Atamzsiktrop]

As of 2, then explain to me how pvp is not competitive in Haven?

Can you explain to me why permadeath makes it competitive?

Losing your character (truly, not for a week but forever) or village or whatever else if you die, or taking that from your enemy, is pretty self explanatory for me.

[Undefined]

Permadeath is definitely a massive hurdle to overcome and probably the biggest reason people leave eventually.
For established players who know how this works losing a character is annoying but not a huge loss, for someone coming to the game recently who doesn't take appropriate precautions it's a massive blow and often one they don't want to bother coming back from.
Personally I'd be all for removing it, either with a drop everything you're carrying, teleport to Heath and a disabling SOULBURN wound that slowly heals.
We could even take it a step into the controversial and have this only happen on subbed accounts, so subscribing limits your exposure to permadeath. Going further you could straight up just resurrect a character for $X.

I have always been a huge fan of permadeath in games and initially with Haven I greatly appreciated it, but that appreciation has faded over time as I've learnt the game and realised how ineffective it actually is, once you're established you simply create and manage X amount of alts for each job and losing one means very little, however to anyone who doesn't take this route losing a character can be dramatically crippling. I would like to see us try a world where this isn't the case, I completely agree with there being repercussions to death but I don't think it should be harsh enough to make a newer player want to leave, Haven definitely needs new blood and I think focus should be put on drawing and retaining new players.

[Kirche]

Dark Souls is not very forgiving for casuals, and while it's an AAA title, it still shows there's a lot of audience looking for hardcore games. Maybe what's the cause of low player base of Haven is not permadeath or the game being bad or whatever, but bad marketing. I imagine there's around 600 players daily, release on Steam could make it 2x that.

Its far more forgiving than haven is, in dark souls you may lose an hour of progress, but your character isn't deleted every time you die

Losing your character (truly, not for a week but forever) or village or whatever else if you die, or taking that from your enemy, is pretty self explanatory for me.

So haven needs permadeath to be competitive, but CS:GO and Dota 2 do not?

[Pan_w_okularach]

The argument for core identity is a decent one however it is not the only thing that attracts people to the game (even though a lot of the ones still playing do value it however they are not that many realistically speaking).

You say that but you don't have any proof. This would have to be monitored and it wasn't in any way. I know a lot of people though that value permadeath and found this game thanks to it.

So if it's not permadeath and unrestricted pvp that made the playerbase so low what other reasons are there for it? Is it a shit game? An unfun one? The graphics are so bad nobody can stomach them? (minecraft, dwarf fortress)

um it takes forever to do anything? there's not many people who would like to spend hours of real life time to lets say build a house in a video game, or wait 50 hours to get steel etc. hello, play a sandbox game sometime, there's plenty of them
to say that permadeath is the main reason people don't play this game, most realise it's too hardcore way before they meet another player

[Kirche]

um it takes forever to do anything? there's not many people who would like to spend hours of real life time to lets say build a house in a video game, or wait 50 hours to get steel etc. hello, play a sandbox game sometime, there's plenty of them
to say that permadeath is the main reason people don't play this game, most realise it's too hardcore way before they meet another player

I'd say the success of ark survival is compelling evidence that just because it takes forever to do something in a game, doesn't mean people won't do it.


Permadeath is not healthy for the game, And I'd like it if J&L would at the very least give a world without it a try.

[dunno6988]

I have a feeling that if Haven and Hearth goes on Steam. The reviews mostly be like Overall: Mixed and Recent:Mostly Positive. But obviously these are predictions for current game. But no idea what would it be when it reaches that point of going on steam, since devs claiming that they will do more major updates for the game. Even though in my opinion the recent updates were game changing updates. Since other games mostly in their updates would be bug fixes and some in-game events. (Sure they are post beta games, but still an update should be an update for the game, not just some news or events).

[Atamzsiktrop]

So haven needs permadeath to be competitive, but CS:GO and Dota 2 do not?

I think losing a game forever is pretty permadeathy tbh.

All you guys say is that permadeath is the biggest factor lowering player count but you actually have no idea if it is because it wasn't ever monitored. Im fairly sure you casuals would get bored 2 months into the world anyway and stop playing. It's not like 900 players suddenly die every world and quit instantly.