Prelude: Happy New World!

[KatoKhan]

Now, all this being said, I do not dislike permadeath in and of itself, its kind of adds a flair for me. BUT what I do detest is the fact that because of when I started and/or the amount of time I play and/or where i happen to settle, everything i worked for can be instantly gone simply because another individual decided it would be fun to shit on a noobie and ruin his day.

Except it can't? You do realize how difficult and labor-intensive it is to raid a palisade these days?
You do know nidbanes, redhanded and outlawed debuffs are all a thing, right? Also burials that can return 60-90% of your original stats, no questions asked.

The developers have taken many steps towards protecting newer players and making sure they have the means to defend themselves even against the top players.
It is the player's duty, however, to take some steps in order to protect their stuff.

I think you shouldn't suggest things out of the "what-if", without even looking at the facts beforehand.

New players are what we are talking about, not well fortified veterans that know all about burials and whatever. I died to a bear and lost a week or two worth of playing. Sure I talked to the guy at creation and got a little back but not much. And as a new player I didnt know about burials and skulls and whatever. I lost time and I was ok with that. But the majority of people I have talked to (which has been a TON because trying to get friends to play) refuse to play simply because of perma death. Are these people going to read 500 pages of forums or a wiki that is mostly outdated to try and learn first ? No sir, they are not. So this "what-if" you speak of is not what if, it has happened.

[Mafious]

i was thinking, im really i don't care all that much, but i will agree that there isn't many people around willing or able to sink 100 hours into a character or more and then have that progress vanish because your client crash hunting a bear or something like that.

you could cap stats with every death, lets say you have 100 stats at 100% before your first death, if you die you get droped to 50% or whatever, and if you die again you get droped to 40% and maybe just really die if you're killed 3 times or something.

ofcourse that would mean, that you can never kill some guy just weaken him and that would kind of suck, in any case most factions have their crafters really well protected and don't get killed that often.

[MagicManICT]

If you are a neighbour of mine and you are chopping down all the trees, taking all the rare stuff that is to be found in my vicinity, i should have the option to attack/raid and yes even murder you. Because you are my competition and if the only option for me is to talk and ask you kindly it will be very easy for you to decline my request.

In a resource gathering MMO there is no 'single player mode', you always commit PvP ( Player Versus Player, which as you can read doesnt always means combat ). You claim land(land that someone else maybe wants), you take 'items' from the world and use them to your own advantage, meaning it's harder for me to take advantage of those items because you already took them. In a open world sandbox one must have the option to retaliate.

I had mentioned jorb's (actually I think it was an agreed upon manifesto of the devs) on permadeath and such. This is a really good summation of the points that were listed if I'm recalling correctly.

@Atamzsiktrop: I think the insult you're referring to was calling newb-killing griefers out, not PvPers and those supporting permadeath in general. At least that's how I read it. I don't disagree with the thoughts behind it, but there's no reason to be so crass about it because these players are a part of the game and they can be directed more useful roles if there's a strong leader somewhere they'll follow.

[KatoKhan]

Would you rather:

a) Play smart and become strong so that nobody can kill you
b) Have the developers babysit you and make you invulnerable

Feel free to respond something else if you want, of course.

First of all who ever said anything about wanting to be babysat ? Like so many others that have no actual basis for their side of an argument you jump right to extremes.
My argument is not to remove PvP, it is to remove permadeath. And if you actually take the time to read my posts, I really think I explained myself quite
thoroughly. But, if it has been beyond your grasp, I will break it down for you...

Developers need money to continue developing the game = players need to play the game = players need to be attracted to the game

Understand this concept so far ? Ok, now it is not just opinion, but FACT, through personal experiences, that MANY people will not play due to permadeath.

Are you still with me ? Do you understand the logic behind it or are you just doubting the validity of the statement ?

[KatoKhan]

One must really wonder if anyone here arguing for 'it must be free' would work for (at times really ungrateful) others free of compensation themselves.

Would really like to see the outcome of hard pay2play (without freebies to exploit, give legitimate new users a free, but limited, demo world to testdrive the first hour or two but no access to the real thing), since should the ones who wouldn't pay or won't play without being able to alt away the consequences of their behaviour for free all really quit it would IMHO be a better world for the ones whos primary goal isn't to bathe in blood. I think would be a good step towards killing alting and throwaway characters, plus nuking accounts for botting would then have some teeth...

+11110000

Well said my friend. I have seen far too many games cater to the loudest ranters in the forums (which coincidently happen to be the voice of the fewest) and make huge changes that completely ruin the game.
Darkfall comes to mind the fastest. Started out pure awesomeness, then devs completely ruined it trying to cater to a few super loud obnoxious grief loving morons. And those changes made the majority of fun loving
normal people leave the game, only the derelicts remained which caused the game to fold because the derelicts generally are not the supporters.

I am a big fan of choices in everything. I would love to see a free to play version, but honestly speaking I do not think a pvp game, especially with perma death, can withstand f2p. If you really want consequences for actions then you have to have a sub. I agree that a $5 per month fee per account (one char only per acct) would be a good thing. Then throw in lots of cash shop items (small convenience and cosmetics only) and you should get funded enough that you can devote more time to making the game we play even better.

The problem, especially in a "competitive" game like this is that the top fanatics would have a crapton of accounts going for $5 a month each while the not so fanatic people are at a disadvantage because they don't want to pay that much for a game and are now limited to one account. I don't see what problem you solve with a system like this.

True. it would not be an end all solution and would probably lose some of the current playerbase. And it is also true that some people would sub many times for multiple alts. BUT the one thing that has changed is the money the devs get
from it. Right now you may see 200 players in game but honestly speaking how many of those are unique players ? How many of those unique players are actually paying money in any form ?
The Devs have to make money, without it the dream dies. The more they make the more they can do. And honestly I would rather see the monthly raised to 10 or 15 bucks instead, but I honestly dont know the magic number that would have the best retention, the best allurement for new players, and the best impact for the game.

[strpk0]

New players are what we are talking about, not well fortified veterans that know all about burials and whatever. I died to a bear and lost a week or two worth of playing. Sure I talked to the guy at creation and got a little back but not much. And as a new player I didnt know about burials and skulls and whatever. I lost time and I was ok with that. But the majority of people I have talked to (which has been a TON because trying to get friends to play) refuse to play simply because of perma death. Are these people going to read 500 pages of forums or a wiki that is mostly outdated to try and learn first ? No sir, they are not. So this "what-if" you speak of is not what if, it has happened.

Yes, indeed the game has problems with teaching itself to newer players, specially with mechanics like burial and whatnot. Not the fault of permadeath.
"Well fortified veterans" being anyone that is not lazy enough to spend 1 hour building a simple palisade and covering it with a claim? Do you even know how the game works before jumping to these conclusions? Shut up.

First of all who ever said anything about wanting to be babysat ? Like so many others that have no actual basis for their side of an argument you jump right to extremes.
My argument is not to remove PvP, it is to remove permadeath. And if you actually take the time to read my posts, I really think I explained myself quite
thoroughly. But, if it has been beyond your grasp, I will break it down for you...

Developers need money to continue developing the game = players need to play the game = players need to be attracted to the game

Understand this concept so far ? Ok, now it is not just opinion, but FACT, through personal experiences, that MANY people will not play due to permadeath.

Are you still with me ? Do you understand the logic behind it or are you just doubting the validity of the statement ?

And many others will ONLY play if permadeath is in. Does your opinion count more than mine because its yours? The only difference being that permadeath is already in the game, whereas you're suggesting to remove it so your friends can play (risking alienating the 300 or so people that love this game and play it daily, and are clearly okay with permadeath being in).
Stop being so defensive. People like you are the kind of people this game doesn't need. Lazy, and self-entitled to everything. It hasn't been this way for years, and my best hope is that it won't become so. Everyone that is currently decent at (or atleast understands) this game at some point went through the troubles of being killed / eaten by animals, myself included. They learnt from their mistakes and therefore won't make them again. That's a lot of the fun this game provides.
You're suggesting to do away with this, why? So your friends can play farmville:haven edition and then get bored 4 hours in because of the gruelling chores this game consists of as you progress (with permadeath gone, I'm sure those will feel worthwhile doing right)?
Get good.

You want this game to dillute itself to the level of a facebook game, simply because right now it has some problems achieving what it wants to achieve. How about a permadeath game where you have no burials and no chance to recover anything when you died, and yet the game was excellent at explaining itself and teaching the players how they should behave if they want to survive. Would that not be just as succesful as your idea? Would that not make an exciting game that everyone would pay any amount of subscription to play? What about a game where even dying 3 times a day is fun because the game allows you to have fun, regardless of your current progress? Is your suggestion "ok, you haven't achieved making permadeath work, so just scrap it and become the next farmville"?

I personally hope this game becomes even harder, but better at teaching new players. That way it will still be the haven I like, only with way more players in the boat.

I don't get why people assume permadeath is the #1 problem this game has, and why they think removing it will somehow magically fix the other myriad of issues that this game has, which are actually in part alleviated by whatever crippled form of permadeath it currently offers. For instance, I wouldn't dare farm for 3 to 4 hours a day to feed my pixel animals if I knew they meant nothing (due to lack of permadeath and dilluted gameplay therefore).

[joojoo1975]

a lot of good discussion going on in here!

first off permadeath:

Right now and ever since the "curio LP system" there has been no true permadeath. and in my opinion, the game has dramatically been hurt because of that. I came here round W2, and the duschebaggery was not anywhere like it is now. I do remember vaguely there were asshole threads(peeps killing indiscriminately) but 9 times outta 10, they got dealt with. now all you usually get in the moot is "all look at us PBP KINGZ" when it was like 3 on 1 or higher. or "HAHAHAHA WE KILT U" shit like that but even in those threads you see "NUANANA I BE BACK IN A DAY 1000 Times Stronker" this is somewhat of the disease that's been affecting H&H. It would seem everybody who Pvp's as the main actions in this game all have: State Funerals, Bots, Vaults, Tons of throw away characters. all these things bypass Permadeath. so saying permadeath is hurting the game. . . I disagree, as in you don't see actual permadeath for the most part.

PVE Server:

if you split the server, I feel you would have a "Wurm" situation. wurm has a handful of players but that have To many servers, and yes they have servers that are pvp orientated and servers that are strictly PVE. guess what the pve server(s) are active while the pvp ones are ghost towns for the most part. So splitting server, please no. How about make PVP Lopsided towards the Defender. rough thinking here but that way if you want to be left alone the odds/game are stackin in your favor, while not, you know what challenge awaits you. this could be applied to attacker/defender out in the world, but I feel you all would scream for my blood if I suggested that.

Botting:

nobody knows the actual numbers and whatnot on who does and doesn't bot. but bottom line botting is an exploit, and when you have exploits it just makes the game duller/worse I really find it hard to believe that if J&L asked for suggestions, that the H&H forums public could not come up with interesting and economical ways to fight it, we may not be able to eradicate it, but I believe we could really hamper/hinder it.

[GamingRAM]

I have to think that the fundamental reason the game isn't bigger lies in the minute-to-minute gameplay, rather than in implementational case details that only show up once under a blue moon. I've played every world ever, and only had a handful of hostile experiences with other players, of which even fewer resulted in my death.

I return to the relative staleness of the world. I think it's a problem that there isn't enough things going on in it for me to interact with, and be affected by, especially so after I get my walls up.

After the initial grinding for the steady amount of tools, food, and curios, and having a nice safe wall to stay behind, I found the best way to keep myself entertained late-game and late-world was through my own creativity. I began painting more, I began baking not for myself but for many others, I began making PAVED roads because I felt they were both aesthetically pleasing, and they give a sign towards civilization (but sadly almost useless due to the all powerful teleporting road signs).

If the world wasn't going to end, here's a small list of what I was thinking of doing:
- Creating the first 151 Pokemon in Paintings and sell them. (Collect them all!)
- Host a world-wide treasure hunt that any noob with a boat could participate in.
- Plant apple trees (and some wells) all over my local area to help encourage newbs to settle.
- Make a Grand Arena! I've seen a lot of villages have a small little area dedicated to fighting, but why not something HUGE, that can support multiple people fighting? With obstacles and all sorts of stuff?
- Try creating some player made games, such as hedgehog racing (like slug racing but with hedgehogs).

For me anyways, I like to think this is Haven and Hearths greatest strengths, allowing us to do almost ANYTHING, we just need the tools to do so. I think player creativity is one of the cores of the game.

That's not to say everything fun has to be player made, even late game I was still discovering some things (and collecting bad but rare curios). I found a Dryad, I encountered a Troll, I found a couple of the rare Chiming Bluebells, etc.
I would be even more encouraged to go out if there was MORE of the rare and elusive stuff to be found (even if they are basically useless like a Dryad, just so I can say I saw it). For example... an un-tamable Unicorn (rare as a Dryad, but can be hunted and killed for their horn and meat), gnomes/garden gnomes that teleport periodically across the world and has no other benefit other than being a nice piece of decoration similar to the rugs (should a lucky player actually find it and pick it up).
But some people want to stay behind their walls, such as the farmers and cooks. If food decayed over time (and preserves were introduced such as pickling and jars n what not to counter starvation of hermits), there might be more meals that would be eaten with others.
Crops circles could be introduced as a way to start a quest.

And just to throw 1 more idea your way: Fate can be turned into an Attribute that isn't gained by food, but instead by discovering the obscure. The name of this Attribute could be "Enlightenment" , which would be raised by finding local resources (so even if it's empty your Enlightenment would go up, making it worth to still make the journey), finding a Dryad, a Troll, maybe introduce Auroras as a random event in mountain regions.
- a couple of things can be done with an Enlightenment stat, either be tied with FATE, or maybe reduced cost for Hearth Magic?
- maybe have the stat be invisible?

[MagicManICT]

This answer to why perma death should be kept is exactly the problem.

1. Having something just for the sake of having it is not a reason. Nullified
2. The fact that there is almost no games like this should explain itself. Majority of people do not want it. Nullified
3. It makes you feel more connected with your character ? How so ? If you spend all your time on one of 7 alts, and your "main" is hiding and never actually leaves the safety of his walls, how are you more connected ??? Nullified
4. Makes simple tasks like foraging more exciting ? well I guess if you are the one slaughtering people because you can, but for the majority of sane people the excitement comes from the possibility of PvP and of
possibly losing your inventory, not so much with losing your whole character. Semi Nullified
5. Understanding why so many noobs quit and do not return should be a priority. I know for a fact many people have quit because of the permadeath because I learned how to read and have read, on many forums, people hate on this game and others for the permadeath. I also know that many people refuse to try this game because of permadeath. I am in several guilds ranging from small 10-50 players to large 250+ players and I cant get one single person from any of them to play this game with me when I have played over 50 games with these people and they tend to try everything. The one most common reason is permadeath.

1. You're actually incorrect. It is a valid reason. However, having just for the sake of having shouldn't conflict with other valid arguments and should be a "last priority" when considering design concepts to keep or dump.
2. There's almost no MMOs with true permadeath (actually "none" would be a proper answer, including Haven), but there may be a market for it. The question is if you can make a product that can cater to that market and be successful enough to continue work on your art form. To note, there are a ton of indie games dating clear back into the 80s, starting with Rogue, with true permadeath, and they have a very devoted following. The fact that Haven hasn't caught on yet says there's problems, but I for one don't think it's the form of death penalty implemented. (I'm going to quit calling it permadeath as it isn't true permadeath... you just can't recycle character names unfortunately.)
3. This really depends on the person. Death, be it real or virtual, has a funny effect on the psyche. You can't really nullify or validate any opinions based on this. However, when death occurs in a game, you can certainly decide if people stay or leave afterward, and if death was the cause of leaving the game or if it was the final straw in a group of issues the player had. This takes some data metrics and opinion polling, though.
4. He's not wrong. This isn't the only MMO I play with extremely high stakes. When you go to where you aren't protected, there's an increased risk of losing it all. However, this isn't tied to permadeath in as much as being out of place and taking risk. Permadeath just makes it riskier.

I have a small library of Roguelike and Rogue-lite games. I love these things and are one of my primary sources of real gameplay. However, I have a lot of other "base building" and other more casual games because I don't always want to have to go through such tedium to try to make something nice.

I suppose this is where the crux of game balance comes in. Haven isn't much of a roguelike because there isn't real permadeath. You inherit your traits from your prior character when you die. The amount of work you get back is proportional to the steps you take to recover and bury your body. You have your base (hopefully... if it wasn't completely sacked) to come back to to rebuild a character with. As an example of what some people are willing to go through, from this thread:

I have an inbox of 8 messages of people looking for him and me to buy back bodies etc and leaving threats. If your offering Sub tokens for your body then obviously you were way above us in strength and he alone couldn't have killed you. Also we have never killed anyone before and we do not raid etc.

I'm not reposting this here to start the drama up here. Take that to the appropriate thread. I think it's a good example, though, of the boundaries people have (or lack thereof) to get a proper burial for the recovery of stats, and may be one of the better arguments for or against the current death penalties. I'm just not sure which side of the fence I'm on. One can certainly argue that it's good for the developers when people are willing to use sub tokens to buy a body back (or equivalent amount of goods, which can be a lot according to market values). But is it good for the overall player base? I can see the lack of value there as it adds privilege into the game based on real world income, and we all know that isn't going to have any equality any time soon.

[joojoo1975]

also please kill the plague that is the. . . RNG

please kill it, kill it with Fire

J&L . . .

you have the power, you have the ability,


please make my day !