Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby loftar » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:18 am

strpk0 wrote:It only was implemented because of a recent event where a group of PvPers complained about someone getting looted before they could, even loftar admits this.

To be sure, what I said was that I had already considered it independently, and that getting the suggestion was just what pushed me over the edge to do it.

To be sure, I never really viewed it as "loot protection", "leniency" or "forgiveness". The real goal was arguably just to make it a bit more of a game to loot someone than just click-a-button-and-it's-done -- to add a bit of a challenge to it. Clearly the looting part is an important part of PvP (you all seem to agree), and I generally think that it ought to be more fun when it's something that you can be more or less good at, which can have more varying degrees of success rather than a Boolean "looted or not" outcome; that was the whole intention. Feel free to suggest alternate suggestions that fulfill the same goal.

As an aside, that was a large part of the reason for me for adding the knock-out protection as well, originally; moreso than leniency and nub-friendliness. Permadeath is fine and all, but what I never liked about combat prior to that was that survival or death were the only outcomes of combat. If anything, I'd generally like there to be more possible outcomes from combat depending on various circumstances.
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby strpk0 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:30 am

loftar wrote:Feel free to suggest alternate suggestions that fulfill the same goal.


IMO if the goal is to make looting downed people a game of the downed person's friends protecting them and the other group trying to grab what they can, I see 2 alternatives:

1. Significantly lengthen the time it takes for the game to allow you to teleport home/lock people out of continuing to loot you (30 seconds -> 1 and a half or 2 minutes).
The only issue I can see with this is that people are already so used to the current timer that they might become afraid the mechanic isn't working anymore and they're about to die, and potentially make a mistake like closing the game to try to log out and instead end up dying or not teleport back in time, so if you do this please also make it so people (finally) get force-teleported back home after the KO protection window ends. Would kill 2 birds with one stone regarding the issue where if you disconnect from the game and are outlawed you will die if someone else isn't around to log into your account and teleport you back.
Also leeches, obviously bad if they get to put leeches on you and kill you before you even get to teleport back home.

2. Revert the change, honestly the system that was in place already kind of accomplished this and has worked this way for a long time. Anything that even slightly makes it safer to get KOed in a PvP encounter just takes away even more from the perma-death/full loot aspect of the game.
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby DDDsDD999 » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:52 am

loftar wrote:To be sure, I never really viewed it as "loot protection", "leniency" or "forgiveness". The real goal was arguably just to make it a bit more of a game to loot someone than just click-a-button-and-it's-done -- to add a bit of a challenge to it. Clearly the looting part is an important part of PvP (you all seem to agree), and I generally think that it ought to be more fun when it's something that you can be more or less good at, which can have more varying degrees of success rather than a Boolean "looted or not" outcome; that was the whole intention. Feel free to suggest alternate suggestions that fulfill the same goal.

Make it so looting an item creates a brief timer on its icon that takes the item when it ends. Just having the game eat your clicks while you're trying to loot someone seems incredibly annoying.

I don't really like how this change just makes it so fighting when outnumbered is even more disadvantaged than it already was. Even when you ko'd someone it was pretty difficult to loot people's stuff if you were outnumbered, so often times the kos just wouldn't matter.
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby mulamishne » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:04 am

loftar wrote:The real goal was arguably just to make it a bit more of a game to loot someone than just click-a-button-and-it's-done -- to add a bit of a challenge to it. Clearly the looting part is an important part of PvP (you all seem to agree), and I generally think that it ought to be more fun when it's something that you can be more or less good at.


Looting is the peanut reward to pvp, I don't want that to be a game that requires 'skill'. I koed a dude, that's where the skill is.

Also for people saying it's 'hermit protection', cringe.

Edit: where was this months dev stream?
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby Apocoreo » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:26 am

strpk0 wrote:Besides, after they effectively removed permadeath from PvP encounters I don't think this game needs any more forgiveness towards the people getting KOed. It would suck to finally get to KO someone only for them to happily get to teleport home with 80-90% of their gear intact, even more frustrating if they were heavily outnumbering you and they get to escape for free because of it.


Could do 4 or however many loots per player, instead of per body. I mean who is really getting protected, I can assume the bigger the faction, the easier to manufacture or trade for equivalent equipment.
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby Vigilance » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:36 am

Apocoreo wrote:Does loot protection even matter that much for PVPers? If you already have the equipment to take out a PVPer you can be a little choosy about stealing their top 4 items. Maybe only having time to loot 4 is a too restrictive but that can be tweaked. I saw this change more for this hermit dude that got killed recently by b12-totting raiders. He might've been able to keep his tools, while the raiders got his occult rings and 2 other things. Well he might've, if he didn't die lol.

It matters enough. As it stands the literal only reason to run out and fight is to gamble loot against other players' skills. Virtually every other facet of PvP yields absolutely nothing. Raiding barely gives you a damned thing, a gank/chase that leads to water will usually yield nothing from a sentient person (dropping all their shit in the water,) and in the usual format for fights, looting is one of those things you really cannot spare time to do. Getting greedy will result in you basically auto-downing yourself due to how the combat system works. That's a lot of why autodrop scripts existed and made people buttmad. The time between "haha we knocked this dude out" and "oh he's gone" was so slim you barely had time to assess what was on the dude. Now looting in larger group formats is going to basically not exist save for the last few knocks while the fights enthusiasm is largely petering out and they're less likely to mob someone sitting in timer-lock.

This is a really out of touch change from Freddie & jorbie. kinda disappointed tbqh. if they didn't bring cutblades back in to existence and finally make pickaxes not a crippling weakness for miners, this'd be a complete lemon of a patch. :(
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby jordancoles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 am

mulamishne wrote:Looting is the peanut reward to pvp, I don't want that to be a game that requires 'skill'. I koed a dude, that's where the skill is.

Pretty much this. We don't need an extra minigame after the fight has already been won. Murder protection is enough. If you don't want to be dry-looted for things that you care about, then don't put the things that you care about at risk by bringing them outside.

Full-loot is the only real benefit to pvp that's left and dragging that down isn't exactly fun.

Scripts to drop-all aren't ideal, sure, but we can also just make scripts that prioritize certain ingame items to loot based on a loot hierarchy. I assume it would go something like: Drop the belt to the floor/in the water (rip all the hermit's tools btw), pick up b12/weapons and put them into your own belt, then grab thanes, troll helmet/dragon helm, pearls/blowholes in study, etc. (tweaked based on what you want more).

I just don't see the benefit and if anything, it creates a bigger incentive to pop murderous rage and to try to kill the person rather than just going for a handful of items
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby ULGMsean » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:09 am

loftar wrote:The real goal was arguably just to make it a bit more of a game to loot someone than just click-a-button-and-it's-done -- to add a bit of a challenge to it.


Revert it to the previous patch as the alternate suggestion. The winner of the fight has already done the "game" that you wanted to add which is combat (even if it's one sided) and looting should be the reward of that and not another "game".
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby Apocoreo » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:18 am

Vigilance wrote:As it stands the literal only reason to run out and fight is to gamble loot against other players' skills.


I sort of like that and would like to see some changes to siege to compliment it. Less ganking and more seiging, with people actually being forced outside their walls to defend their land. I can see why it's kind of shit that ganking yields little rewards now, but it feels like only PVPers really give a shit, people playing defensively will view this as positive.

I can see how this is rather a bandage and the real problem is the divide between hermits and the big factions. Kind of a symptom of this being an rpg is that people get those great stats and everyone else becomes scared to fight in any way. If there were no stat losses from death I'd probably throw on shit equipment and go to meteors and shit, even if I lose maybe me and my squad can catch a better player alone or something.

As it stands I support the change because it supports my playstyle and I treat "real" PVPers as extra-strong bears that might try to siege me. If I'm PVPing my group is punching down and the goal is to win a siege and smash their base, usually to drive them away or make them quit, not steal whatever they have on their character.

jordancoles wrote:I just don't see the benefit and if anything, it creates a bigger incentive to pop murderous rage and to try to kill the person rather than just going for a handful of items


I kind of like this as well. Makes the game more lethal for the tragically weak, sure, but hopefully more for PVPers popping Murderous Rage as well. Hell, make it last longer, so they gotta ride the bench or risk their character in a real fight.

If murderous rage works as the wiki says. Which has a barely fitting bible verse in it lol wtf

https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Murder
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Re: Game Development: Strawberry Turpentine

Postby LunarArchon » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:28 am

jordancoles wrote:
mulamishne wrote:Looting is the peanut reward to pvp, I don't want that to be a game that requires 'skill'. I koed a dude, that's where the skill is.

Pretty much this. We don't need an extra minigame after the fight has already been won. Murder protection is enough. If you don't want to be dry-looted for things that you care about, then don't put the things that you care about at risk by bringing them outside.

Full-loot is the only real benefit to pvp that's left and dragging that down isn't exactly fun.

Scripts to drop-all aren't ideal, sure, but we can also just make scripts that prioritize certain ingame items to loot based on a loot hierarchy. I assume it would go something like: Drop the belt to the floor/in the water (rip all the hermit's tools btw), pick up b12/weapons and put them into your own belt, then grab thanes, troll helmet/dragon helm, pearls/blowholes in study, etc. (tweaked based on what you want more).

I just don't see the benefit and if anything, it creates a bigger incentive to pop murderous rage and to try to kill the person rather than just going for a handful of items


Why is looting so important if the meta is to not leave the base with anything of value? What would anyone stand to gain from looting if that rule was perfectly followed?

Also love seeing power players and old gods with large groups decrying the devs for being out of touch from the game while conveniently ignoring or shitting on any playstyle other than their own.
Another suggestion to make it more palatable for them...

What if the cooldown only applied to players who weren't outlawed/red-handed (or had criminal acts off)?

This at least makes it so unwilling participants in combat e.g. the hermits getting ganked are less screwed.
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