Prelude: World 12

[Mario_Demorez]

Yo Jorb, why not make the changes to the world this world for a week or two for live testing? Just to see test!

[reticent]

I think removing combat-relevant credo bonuses is a mistake.
Having elements of character-building that are outside of FEP/LP/Q grind is good.
Encouraging a bit of choice between combat-relevant credo paths (cave hermit, or strider?) and encouraging active grind (aka playing the game) as opposed to leveling off industry dividends is good.
The only one I can agree with is removing the chase speed buff from pursuing small animals on forager. But even that would've been better solved by disabling the bonus while in combat, rather than scrapping it out right. And besides, bunny slippers are still a thing.

From the bird's eye point of view of game's mechanics and ecosystem, the game became a little poorer, and people will play it just a tiny bit less.

[MagicManICT]

The only one I can agree with is removing the chase speed buff from pursuing small animals on forager. But even that would've been better solved by disabling the bonus while in combat, rather than scrapping it out right. And besides, bunny slippers are still a thing.

I'm not sure if it was here or a thread in C&I, but as someone else pointed out: How do you distinguish the guy "not in combat" but involved in the chase from those actively engaged in a combat relation?

[reticent]

The only one I can agree with is removing the chase speed buff from pursuing small animals on forager. But even that would've been better solved by disabling the bonus while in combat, rather than scrapping it out right. And besides, bunny slippers are still a thing.

I'm not sure if it was here or a thread in C&I, but as someone else pointed out: How do you distinguish the guy "not in combat" but involved in the chase from those actively engaged in a combat relation?

Since animal paths are somewhat random, I think the person being chased gets the most value out of chasing an animal. Being ahead of the others and having a greater freedom of movement (he only needs to increase the gap in any direction, while the chasers need to close it). Besides, it's not hard to pull someone into combat relation with an attack command.

So the actors benefiting the most from forager speed buff (primarily, the person being chased), would almost certainly be in combat relations. And it's hard to see how you could be involved in the chase, benefit significantly from carrying bunnies, and manage to avoid combat relations with the target.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Indeed.

After much deliberation, and very reluctantly, we have decided to scrap most of the claim changes entirely, and simply make these changes.

• All claims now have a "Power Level". ranging from 0 to 1.
• The "Power Level" of a newly established claim increases from 0 to 1 over the course of four RL weeks.
• A Battering Ram requires 24h * the Claim's Power Level of drying time to destroy Palisades on the claim, and 32h * the Claim's Power Level of drying time to destroy Brick Walls on the claim.
• The stronger claim always applies in case of overlapping claims.
• Anyone can find out the "Power Level" of claim by inspecting it.

We, again, reluctantly, recognize that the problem of overlapping and enveloping claims is too great to solve naively, and that the system as it stands would be plagued by too many of the problems we saw with shields in W10. We believe that the establishment time mechanic, which was one of the primary reasons we wanted the change, can still be salvaged, as it acts as a strict debuff on younger claims.

We have not abandoned the mechanic as such, and still believe that it could show some promise, but not unless the problem of overlapping and enveloping claims is solved more forcefully than we are presently able to do. If and when we decide to change this again, we will consider doing so in a context more singularly dedicated to testing.

Thank you for your insistence in pointing out problems, and your feedback in general. We are still making changes, so there is plenty of time to complain about other things should you desire to do so.

This is my feedback.
Take it for what it is worth.

A group of people, specifically a group of people I have long been involved with, were excited to return to HnH for World 12 with the new siege changes. We recognized the claim encirclement issue, but we figured that you would cleverly come up with a solution. I have always had great faith in you and Loftar to come up with creative solutions. In fact, Loftar virtually solved the problem back in 2016. He just needed a few more tweaks, and I have faith that the two of you knocking heads can easily solve the issue prior to W12's launch.

I am not trying to get you to "change your game development" with the threat that my group of players will not play. But just for value, solely as feedback, I think it'd be worth letting you know that the siege system was a key change responsible for much of our renewed interest.

I'd ask that you again reconsider whether or not you can come up with a viable, or even semi-viable, solution that would allow you to introduce the siege system that you originally proposed.
Our thoughts are that it was going to do much and more to eliminate the late game stagnation (in concert with the reduction in spiraling and the other things that you did to narrow the gap between titans and regular PvPers).

[azrid]

Doesn't your group quit after a month every world?

[Robben_DuMarsch]

There is a reasonable drop-off of interest that is noticeable approximately a month from launch, yes.
I think this is not unique to New Brodgar, although it may be more pronounced.

[AriZona]

Potters clay : any thoughts to fix/tweek it? it has a whole 3rd-lvl credo, but what it does it only opens the 8th mine level. Considering its Q is poor, high cost, and 8th mine level does not unlock new features (ores, etc.), potters clay looks slightly broken. Could u consider changes that potters clay would reach high Q than bone clay?

[HorridStonefish]

Heya Jorb and Loftar thanks for a new world.

I am not much of a siege guy and i haven't read every post but i think one of the things people are overlooking is the huge ability to call for help now available (compared to earlier worlds), once kingdoms are up there is in-game yelling to the local community, there is large discord channels to yell for help on. Your average newb and hermit has much more access to the community than ever before and 'instantaneous' back up is pretty easy to call in. In previous worlds getting help within an hour was almost unheard of now if it takes you an hour to get support it would be a rare moment. To counter this sieging needs to be made easier.

Making sieging viable puts some responsibility on the kingdoms to provide support to their hermits and small villages, if you never get any support from your kingdom and are constantly getting smashed move to another kingdom. With the value of an active character on authority gain kingdoms need the little guys.

People also have to consider what they want from a siege, is it just for loot or to feel big? Or is it to be able to force PvP opportunities on opponents?

I do like this or something along these lines:

Siege camps.

If someone has such a hard on for pvp and sieging put the onus on them to put the work in rather than just waiting for a weakness window or spamming alts to check for openings or whatever.

New camp idol to declare a siege over a broad area that overrides all claim protections even if they are stacked over each other within a certain distance. Some drying time before it's done to give people the opportunity to destroy it proactively or get ready to defend. Siegers would have to actively defend their shit, build walls, make a space to prepare all their rams or whatever. Hermits could see it coming and cry for help and do gooders could come siege the siegers.

I honestly have no idea how rams work but if it's a distance before repair situation, have unlimited distance within siege idol radius and have battering walls wear down ram durability. So if there is ten walls, build ten rams or something. Something something needing more resources going into a siege relative to how hardcore the defenses are. I think prebuilding a squad of rams in preparation for the claim being ready, then unleashing them once the time comes is a good opportunity for sabotage.

Maybe subsequent siege flags that extend a small radius to push into deeper defenses. Siege camps should have some built in timer so it's not a permanent no defense zone

Some cooldown relative to siege length for the area/defending claim, plus a considerable cost so you shouldnt be able to spam siege claims. There would be some concern for pretend sieges triggering cooldowns perpetually

Also attackers have to swear oaths to the claim and it flags them for pvp so defenders can take free shots at them without murder or crimes.

This has been my incoherent ted talk

Edit: also as the timer wears on for the siege drying time is reduced. Have quick dry rams and siege equipment during some small window at the apex of a siege. Same for defenders. The faster the attacking siege weapons, the faster the defender rams to knockdown the siege camp walls and break their shit

I think it was a world or 2 ago when peeps were throwing up claims with palis to protect their catapults, that felt the most like siege warfare to me. This would offer good PvP opportunities to those who like them as the person being sieged (assuming they don't want to PvP themselves) can call for help and generally the people sieging want a fight. It would make sieging viable but still involve a lot of energy to do, this means kicking in a hermitage is probably not worth the effort but taking it to a major city would be more worth while.

Finally J+L: love the game, love your work, i am constantly amazed at how much you listen to and involve your community in your games direction, my guess is the new dungeon is a crab hole and i hope we can kill the ents. Looking forward to world 12, thanks guys.

[VDZ]

This is my feedback.
Take it for what it is worth.

A group of people, specifically a group of people I have long been involved with, were excited to return to HnH for World 12 with the new siege changes. We recognized the claim encirclement issue, but we figured that you would cleverly come up with a solution. I have always had great faith in you and Loftar to come up with creative solutions. In fact, Loftar virtually solved the problem back in 2016. He just needed a few more tweaks, and I have faith that the two of you knocking heads can easily solve the issue prior to W12's launch.

I am not trying to get you to "change your game development" with the threat that my group of players will not play. But just for value, solely as feedback, I think it'd be worth letting you know that the siege system was a key change responsible for much of our renewed interest.

I'd ask that you again reconsider whether or not you can come up with a viable, or even semi-viable, solution that would allow you to introduce the siege system that you originally proposed.
Our thoughts are that it was going to do much and more to eliminate the late game stagnation (in concert with the reduction in spiraling and the other things that you did to narrow the gap between titans and regular PvPers).

While I am also slightly disappointed that the siege changes have been abandoned for now, I do think it's better for the new siege to be delayed as notable flaws have been found than if it were to be rushed and we encounter various forms of abuse in practice that are not easily fixed. I hope it's not completely abandoned and we'll see it again in w13 (with genuine vulnerability windows, not active players being 100% protected and newbies and less active players being fucked because the brimstone has to go somewhere), but for now I think getting no new system is better than getting a broken new system. They need more time to work on it.