Prelude: Happy New World!

[wolf1000wolf]

we need more safe spaces

Because viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710 this and many more reasons that some things just shouldn't change.

Everytime someone links that post I just facepalm.

That post is about how its a bad/impossible idea to have absolutely "no PvP" since there are countless acts along the spectrum of player actions which can be considered hostile and adverse against other players while not being the "traditional" idea of PvP.

Please stop using that post as a general "oh the devs said this, end of story" when discussing complicated and nuanced topics of how we can have an active, vibrant world that somehow accommodates players of all persuasions.

[waga]

we need more safe spaces

Because viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710 this and many more reasons that some things just shouldn't change.

not sure if you actually read Jorb's post or mine.
it's about pvp , I'm for pvp. (and everything that characterize pvp by jorb's definition)

I'm for allowing ppl to fight for ressources (or whatever )as much as I'm for allowing ppl who don't want to deal with other ppl the possibility not to.

[waga]

we need more safe spaces

Because viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710 this and many more reasons that some things just shouldn't change.

Everytime someone links that post I just facepalm.

.

indeed

[SmackMcBacon]

Everytime someone links that post I just facepalm.

That post is about how its a bad/impossible idea to have absolutely "no PvP" since there are countless acts along the spectrum of player actions which can be considered hostile and adverse against other players while not being the "traditional" idea of PvP.

Please stop using that post as a general "oh the devs said this, end of story" when discussing complicated and nuanced topics of how we can have an active, vibrant world that somehow accommodates players of all persuasions.

I have said before what i think about these complicated and nuanced topics, it's just nice that there's a dev's response to it. You can view it as just a description on how they view pvp but to me it encompasses the general idea of what this game and the world is about. One of her core values is full pvp and being able to bring death (real damage) to your enemies. Does HnH wants a bigger playerbase and in exchange become more of a standard themepark game? Or does it want to stay niche and true to what it is?

All i hear from the people against is the same thing over and over again 'you need more players devs! this game would be better without permadeath and nerfed pvp'. When permadeath gets removed you will complain about destruction of your base, when they nerf that you'll complain people steal your stuff etc.etc . It's a neverending story

Don't you think if they wanted to change this and viewed it as something very important to Seatribe they would've changed it already or at least tested/played with it? I honestly believe they won't remove permadeath, ever, nor do i believe we'll have another server up. But who knows, if enough of you scream perhaps they'll succumb to your wishes.

[SmackMcBacon]

Point i'm trying to make is that perhaps we should focus on other things to improve the game and get more people to join this cool, sexy, harsh place. I'm sure there are plenty of problems that should be solved first (botting for example), or if/when they'll ever create a permanent server and a ton of other stuff that should be addressed first.

There must be more reasons why we don't have bigger playerbase other then dem mean griefahs ruining muh day. More PR and promotion might help perhaps?

[Ronin30]

Why not incorporate a debuff/curse system into the game then?

For example - In tree of life (horrible game I know) if you were an advanced character and you killed a "sprucecap" noob, you recieved a stat penalty debuff for a long time and a movement speed slow, basically making it to where his village of noobs could rush out and have a chance at taking you down.

You want to kill noobs, fine. But increase the risk at them retaliating.

[NOOBY93]

i'm all for a safe trigger free space where i can express my feminism without any cishets mansplaining permadeath to me

[Mafious]

Point i'm trying to make is that perhaps we should focus on other things to improve the game and get more people to join this cool, sexy, harsh place. I'm sure there are plenty of problems that should be solved first (botting for example), or if/when they'll ever create a permanent server and a ton of other stuff that should be addressed first.

There must be more reasons why we don't have bigger playerbase other then dem mean griefahs ruining muh day. More PR and promotion might help perhaps?

steep learning curve, hard to catch up, game isn't finished, wiki is a mess, forums are 90% flame, you got people like Lady Goo that offer help and other guys that say she enslaves noobs but don't give any alternative to people looking for friends.

not many people are willing to play and even less are willing to pay for a mmo that isn't finished, and where if people want to kill you, you lose everything.

because most mmo (at least the popular ones) have or had small xp penalties when dying, or predetermined factions that more or less put half the people on your side by default, safe-ish zones. the thing is haven is less like the popular mmos, and more alike to browser games like ogame or shit like that where you spend your time and money building shit in the hopes no one fucks you and those games you can put someshit to build and not touch the game for 3 days until it finish.

[Aceb]

In simple word -> Haven truly stands to "survival" word. Either it is death by animals or suffering from all wolfs. Nowadays people are looking more towards "easy" games. This game is not easy and surely, won't be.

Or more simple. People are too much used to dying in game and not being punished for that. Haven makes You trying to avoid that death.

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Why we need wolfs in the game if we have noob killers, DIS, AD and other stuff running around wildly? Pretty much the same idea.

[Granger]

PvP can't be only consenting, for reasons already outlined in the developer view on PvP.

Given that, and I agree with it, death needs to have consequences to be somewhat meaningful. When death mechanics in a game get to harsh (by either being unfair in the sense of leaving the victim no chance, or by destroying the ability to continue the game) it impacts the will of players to play. Dying and having to restart from scratch works for games like Realm of a mad God where you'll be back to where you died within some minutes. But it doesn't work for one where you'll need months, so people work around the issue by avoiding danger, exposing only alts or even automate the process of creating them.

All happening in Haven: getting killed by other, superior players for fun, unable to retaliate as the time needed to get the character back to a state where tracking the scent and creating a nidbane of reasonable quality that it succeeds takes longer than the scent lasts. Getting the character into a state able to fight back without simply acting as a low level NPC is impossible. Reaching out to neighbours for help is pointless unless the neighbours are a PvP faction and the ones who got you are not. Burying and state funeral sound like great mechanics but they are mostly unavailable to the average hermit. That leaves paranoia behind walls and alts.

My gut feeling is that death consequences in a game paced like Haven that last longer than a week kills player retention by killing any incentive to do something stupid (like getting together a horde of farmers to rally against their oppressors) for the fun of it. When you're PvP faction member and have access to burial and the fruits of (automated or not) industries this problem doesn't really exist (as can be gathered from forum comments, because these seem to voice that all is well except they just have it too hard to project their will on others because of siege slow and visitor sucks) since then you can recover quickly. But the median player, at least at world start, isn't PvP faction but hermit or larper village member.

Hence I proposed to have a world that is more of a game by making death suck less but still give a week of downside, less alts (as of less need and also by making them non-free) and to run this in parallel to see what works better by giving the players the ability to decide the world they want to live in.