Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby Tamalak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:04 pm

strpk0 wrote:No, they wouldn't. You would still get less lp than the people who use automatic curio studies or something similar. This update helped level the playing field for less hardcore players.


I DO use autostudy and I was still getting more LP with wear than without. This is because:
-Autostudy isn't perfect (you can lose connection, and certain items will always run out unless you plan obsessively)
-With wear there's no danger of running out of good curios. I'd be able to run q40 glimmermoss at all times with little effort. Without wear, I can only barely keep glimmer of any quality available. Hell I even passed up picking q10 glimmer during the wear experiment because there was ample time to find another q40. Consumption of curios is high without wear and autostudy doesn't keep you from running dry on them.

No, you wouldn't. While it is true that the EXP drain shouldn't be always 100% regardless of the wear state, it is still not a very significant amount. Rather, it's probably more like a tradeoff for the extra LP gain you're getting from not having to refill your study 24/7.


No, even if they did make exp proportional to wear progression, exp costs would go up, a LOT. A curio of wear 12 would hit you for 6x the exp cost over its lifespan than it did. That said, both of my above two issues would be pretty much solved by simply halving the LP rewards and EXP costs of curios (as well as making exp costs go down with wear).

I'm pretty certain this was the whole intention of this update, so that you don't have to spend ridiculous amounts of your time doing senseless things like massing curiosities and managing your study. Also, I personally don't see how "half of the game is removed" if you're just being given time to do things other than dumb grinding.


But the devs already have a rather beautiful curio economy to deal with this. If you're a casual who can't farm a million dragonflies, that's what long-term curios are for. They won't give you as much LP per hour as fast curios, but it still pretty much follows the results=sqrt(effort) formula that keeps casuals relevant while rewarding frequent play.

I fail to see how this is a problem. There are (and will always be) less-useful curiosities. Also, how is "variety" that important? I'm pretty sure the whole point of the curio system is to gain lp, not to admire your shiny variable items. This is only my opinion though, and you could see some other sort of meaning behind curiosities.


Except admiring my shiny valuable items IS rewarding. The way the default curio system is, you need/want quite a lot and quite a variety of curios, so I get a nice stocked-larder feeling by bringing home even sub-par curios like uncommon snapdragons. They WILL get used. With wear, all you do is calculate which 16-slots of curios give you the best lp/hour, and make them in a desultory fashion, over and over, ignoring any others. That's essentially stripping content from the game.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby strpk0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:13 pm

Understand that not all players are happy with having to spend large amounts of time grinding when they would rather be doing something else in the game.
Your concept of "effort" is flawed in thinking that only the players that play for grinding and massing stats should be rewarded, while the players that enjoy exploring the other features of the game like socializing, village design and other things in general, but not so much doing repetitive labor should be punished and have to resort to "longer time curiosities". Again, with this system in place you could still mass all the curiosities you want, and you would be rewarded in knowing you have the BEST possible LP/hour. The one thing I personally liked is that you didn't HAVE to anymore.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby Tamalak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:24 pm

strpk0 wrote:Understand that not all players are happy with having to spend large amounts of time grinding when they would rather be doing something else in the game.


In that case just double the time for all curios. That would have the nice effect of slowing down the game a bit too. No need to come up with a wear system that has so many drawbacks.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby strpk0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:27 pm

Tamalak wrote:
strpk0 wrote:Understand that not all players are happy with having to spend large amounts of time grinding when they would rather be doing something else in the game.


In that case just double the time for all curios. That would have the nice effect of slowing down the game a bit too. No need to come up with a wear system that has so many drawbacks.


I've never understood this whole argument of "slowing the game down". Honestly, Salem is proof that an overly slow game only succeeds in boring everyone right out of it.
About the wear system, yes it was flawed, but as you can see from the response from a lot of players it was a heck of a lot better than what was in place before, and simply reverting the update feels a bit dissapointing.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby FerrousToast » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:30 pm

BTW, nobody has mentioned it yet, but flint and steel is great. Q 30 average gives 17 lights per, and you can make 5 per bar, which means 1 bar and 5 pieces of flint will actually light 85 fires. very reasonable.

And the scythe speedup? lets get some farmers rejoicing!
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby Kaios » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:33 pm

strpk0 wrote:and simply reverting the update feels a bit dissapointing.


Agreed. I really enjoyed what appeared to be a significant boost to the LP gain rate. The LP gain has been terribly slow so far this world, especially if you are someone that hasn't been running auto curio and I'm one of those people so I can say that with certainty. I maybe chained mirkwoods for one night since the beginning and I've been paying for it with incredibly low experience ever since. It's no wonder some players quit after losing a developed character.

FerrousToast wrote:BTW, nobody has mentioned it yet, but flint and steel is great. Q 30 average gives 17 lights per, and you can make 5 per bar, which means 1 bar and 5 pieces of flint will actually light 85 fires. very reasonable.


It's great, so much better than having to use shitty branches.

FerrousToast wrote:And the scythe speedup? lets get some farmers rejoicing!


Meh, it's nice but I still couldn't keep up with picking everything before so it's probably worse now in that regard.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby strpk0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:34 pm

FerrousToast wrote:BTW, nobody has mentioned it yet, but flint and steel is great. Q 30 average gives 17 lights per, and you can make 5 per bar, which means 1 bar and 5 pieces of flint will actually light 85 fires. very reasonable.

And the scythe speedup? lets get some farmers rejoicing!


Honestly eating snow is the best part of this update :lol: . i've been doing it a lot
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby Tamalak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:37 pm

strpk0 wrote:I've never understood this whole argument of "slowing the game down". Honestly, Salem is proof that an overly slow game only succeeds in boring everyone right out of it.


If it's too slow it will bore people early, but if it's too fast it will bore people late.

It seems to me that when noobs quit this game, they quit because they can't figure out how to progress, not that progression is too slow. The new quest system will help with that and I hope it gets expanded.

Advanced people, however, are definitely quitting because their society is capped out except for the q grind.
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby strpk0 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:41 pm

Tamalak wrote:
strpk0 wrote:I've never understood this whole argument of "slowing the game down". Honestly, Salem is proof that an overly slow game only succeeds in boring everyone right out of it.


If it's too slow it will bore people early, but if it's too fast it will bore people late.

It seems to me that when noobs quit this game, they quit because they can't figure out how to progress, not that progression is too slow. The new quest system will help with that and I hope it gets expanded.

Advanced people, however, are definitely quitting because their society is capped out except for the q grind.


So how would slowing down the game now help in any way? If anything, speeding up things a bit later on in a world could help bring more players towards a level when they can engage in PvP and all the other things the older and more advanced players like to do, and I can safely say this study system was a good step towards that. Slowing it down now would simply cripple the amount of players that will even reach the end-game to begin with (before they just get murdered and wiped out by the bored "end-game players").
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Re: Game Development: Seasons Greetings

Postby Tamalak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:44 pm

Ehh this is getting off topic. We'll agree to disagree.

It is nice having a fast game so maybe they'll implement more things to do endgame rather than need to slow things down.
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