Game Development: Magnifying Cook

[VDZ]

You went into a cave doh. Did you not think that your precious toon should be in peril somehow? Why is that?

And still imho it was your fault... You entered the dungeon/cave... And for what reason???

For basic game progression? You cannot get any metal without going into a cave (ore boulders were removed in either world 9 or 10), and without metal you're locked out of a huge part of the game. I fully understand and accept not being able to craft my own Troll Belt without a serious risk of losing my character. For basic game progression to require such huge risks, however, especially if there's a huge degree of luck involved, would be ridiculous. It'd be like if you were only able to get leather from bears. You could say people should just man up and melee bears to get their leather, but in practice that would be bullshit and people would just exploit their way to leather (see the pre-Hafen sling hunting from boats for example).

And that's the biggest problem with bullshit design like that: It's not just that it feels unfair to me as someone who tries to play the game as intended, but also that it will make people play the game in unfun, unintended ways; rather than 'playing it safe' or 'taking brave risks', people would just repeatedly send alts to their deaths for any activities with an unreasonable risk:reward ratio. If basic cave exploration (as opposed to special high-risk high-reward optional cave elements) becomes as lethal as described, especially if it punishes me for merely engaging with a certain part of the design without any fault of mine other than believing the game would be reasonable, even I would just start spamming alts to do that kind of shit.

Yes, and they should probably play another game imo. Sorry again, but I don't get your argument. Why should it entirely be the fault of the player?

Because that's basic game design. You don't punish the player at random and you especially do not punish them for exhibiting behavior you want to encourage (exploration in this case). As I said: It's unfun. Variance is fine; sometimes a bear spawns right outside of your base, sometimes you mine out Green Ooze which attacks you. The game may toss unexpected challenges at you to make things more exciting. But there is no fun in inflicting long-term or even permanent damage on a player without giving the player a fair chance to avoid it.

Exactly what is different about this and entering a cave on a lower level for which no one here has said perhaps there shouldn't be a warning; tho I personally could care less...It's a cave, and the dangers already get more intense the deeper you go, wow. lol.

One is an optional challenge for optional rewards, the other is punishing players for trying to achieve basic game progression. I'm fine with adding high-risk, high-reward challenges. I'm not fine with taking an existing major element of the basic gameplay and having it suddenly kill players, especially for no reason and especially when it can easily be worked around using unintended gameplay methods like alting.

[CorwinOfAmber]

balancing it against rubbing sticks together which takes time, costs stamina, and the two sticks as well as being unreliable. For that to remain relevant, mag-glass should have some kind of downside against it.

Not sure why there's a need for balance beyond the obvious: they only work in sunlight. And anyone can already get flint and steel if they want to hit the market, or advance their metalwork (and bother with producing steel). Not to mention it does take several minutes to heat proper tinder up enough to burn... compare to flint and steel... near instant fire.

Steel is still a pain in the ass to make for hermits with things to do IRL.

Yes, and they should probably play another game imo.

and this is how haven keeps dying.

Jorbtar make it so if we have a dock we can tie off our knarr, this drift is about as bad and annoying as adding the midges. At least let me rub myself in mud to stop those evil bastards, idk why you guys keep adding elements to be annoying for no reason.

[VDZ]

Steel is still a pain in the ass to make for hermits with things to do IRL.

If you're capable of trading somehow (in this case most likely by having access to the Community Fair), Flint & Steel and Matches are relatively cheap to just buy instead.

(Also, please fix your quote formatting error. Now it looks like I said something I never said.)

[MagicManICT]

when it can easily be worked around using unintended gameplay methods like alting.

Going to say overall I like and agree with the general theme of your post, but got to call bullshit on this statement. It's an MMO. "Many characters working toward a common goal" is in the design. Whether that is many characters controlled by many players or by a single player is unimportant. Very few games punish players for using more than one account/character. Those that do have a very hard time policing it properly--they usually only catch the uniformed or lazy, and sometimes scoop up those that are trying to follow the rules but occasionally make a mistake.

Steel is still a pain in the ass to make for hermits with things to do IRL.

Yeah, and I quit trying to do it as a solo player w6. It's too much living on alarms to keep things running. I played a game like that once, and got tired of it... quit after a single play through. (I was deep enough in I couldn't just quit in the middle of a 9-10 month run on my team.)

[CorwinOfAmber]

Steel is still a pain in the ass to make for hermits with things to do IRL.

If you're capable of trading somehow (in this case most likely by having access to the Community Fair), Flint & Steel and Matches are relatively cheap to just buy instead.

(Also, please fix your quote formatting error. Now it looks like I said something I never said.)

but there will be a reset in time and this will not always be a viable option depending on community composition of the world. Let us think of a deeper fix than just "buy it from someone", it takes the piss out of the game when you can't do stuff as a lone player.

[VDZ]

when it can easily be worked around using unintended gameplay methods like alting.

Going to say overall I like and agree with the general theme of your post, but got to call bullshit on this statement. It's an MMO. "Many characters working toward a common goal" is in the design. Whether that is many characters controlled by many players or by a single player is unimportant.

There is definitely something to be said for alting as in multiple genuine player characters. But I was thinking more about this kind of alting:



Using alts as disposable objects to avoid gameplay elements or making use of them in ways the game was not designed for is definitely unintended. I don't think it's against the spirit of the game to have a secondary character whose main occupation is mining, but having a naked alt who's been fed nothing but STR food and does literally nothing else other than mining from the moment of logging in to the moment of logging out, especially if done to avoid risk on a more important character, cannot possibly be intended gameplay and undermines designs which should put your character in danger.

Steel is still a pain in the ass to make for hermits with things to do IRL.

If you're capable of trading somehow (in this case most likely by having access to the Community Fair), Flint & Steel and Matches are relatively cheap to just buy instead.

(Also, please fix your quote formatting error. Now it looks like I said something I never said.)

but there will be a reset in time and this will not always be a viable option depending on community composition of the world. Let us think of a deeper fix than just "buy it from someone", it takes the piss out of the game when you can't do stuff as a lone player.

Flint & Steel is a luxury good, and in fact all steel-based items have been luxury goods since world 8, with AFAIK every steel product having a functionally identical but usually less efficient alternative that does not require steel. In the case of Flint & Steel, the alternative is to build a fire pit and use two sticks to light it, then proceed to use sticks lit using that fire (and later on torches) to light things. Flint & Steel (and Matches, which may be easier to produce if you manage to get brimstone) are just added convenience.

(Not that I'm saying Steelmaking isn't bullshit; I hate it too. But I'm already sorta satisfied now that it's no longer required for basic gameplay like how Brickwalls were required pre-Hafen.)

[Reyajh]

You went into a cave doh. Did you not think that your precious toon should be in peril somehow? Why is that?

And still imho it was your fault... You entered the dungeon/cave... And for what reason???

For basic game progression? You cannot get any metal without going into a cave (ore boulders were removed in either world 9 or 10), and without metal you're locked out of a huge part of the game.

Loftar was talking about deeper levels of the cave system and not all caves...

Yes, and they should probably play another game imo. Sorry again, but I don't get your argument. Why should it entirely be the fault of the player?

Because that's basic game design. You don't punish the player at random and you especially do not punish them for exhibiting behavior you want to encourage (exploration in this case). As I said: It's unfun. Variance is fine; sometimes a bear spawns right outside of your base, sometimes you mine out Green Ooze which attacks you. The game may toss unexpected challenges at you to make things more exciting. But there is no fun in inflicting long-term or even permanent damage on a player without giving the player a fair chance to avoid it.

I'm sorry but I just don't see this being the case so far in Haven... There are already elements in the game as you state in your bear spawn example, with randomality that can be perceived as punishing the player for no reason at all. This is considered by me and many as challenging... Balance is the key and I think Haven does a fine job of that all things considered (It IS a WIP.)

Exactly what is different about this and entering a cave on a lower level for which no one here has said perhaps there shouldn't be a warning; tho I personally could care less...It's a cave, and the dangers already get more intense the deeper you go, wow. lol.

One is an optional challenge for optional rewards, the other is punishing players for trying to achieve basic game progression. I'm fine with adding high-risk, high-reward challenges. I'm not fine with taking an existing major element of the basic gameplay and having it suddenly kill players, especially for no reason and especially when it can easily be worked around using unintended gameplay methods like alting.

Honestly, I don't think that we are too far apart in this. I'm all for high-risk, high-reward challenges. I think it adds to a deeper level of gameplay and replayability. And as you said, they can go to the markets and attempt to buy these high reward items perhaps... I think that you just misunderstood Loftar's intent.

That's a good idea for eventual cave decay, the deeper you are the slower the decay.

While that does seem kind of reasonable, I also think that caves should be less and less hospitable the deeper they go. I've generally considered such things as 1) not being able to Travel to Hearth from lower cave levels, 2) not being able to log out from even lower cave levels and/or 3) turning off permadeath protection from lower cave levels (possibly having Cave Hermit restore some of these). It has mostly been Jorb holding me back from it.

One of the major draws for me to Haven is the level of challenges the game offers. Yes, most game players are averse to that, but they can and will go play games like FF Online and I'm a huge fan of the series. But those mmo's are just glorified graphical chat rooms to me and many other gamers, who also desire a more challenging PvP, death/permadeath experience... That is more conducive (Really essential, imo or case, personally) to long term replayability. There is much room for growth if Haven can get it right.

[Dakkan]

Wandering for 2 hours in the caves and then being forced to backtrack that enitre distance you've already covered is not a fucking challenge. It's boring. Exploring is fun and interesting, finding where this cave is going to connect to, and different villages you may encounter. Wandering through the underground is not dangerous at all currently, so maybe that should be the first thing addressed before ruining the exploration aspect of the underground.

[DDDsDD999]

Having to backtrack your way back home was cancer in salem and it'd be cancer in haven. If you want to make the underground dangerous, hide good resources in underground dungeons. All preventing hearthing would do is make larpers like granger think "LOL get rekt people that play the game", and that's a bad thing.

[Enjoyment]

Lets take another classic RPG example - trapped golden chest. It stands in narrow place so you won't miss it. It is golden, so you know there is a good loot in it. But it is trapped with a extremly hard trap. So, a proper game design would be to put low perception demands on it to be detected and high dexterity to be disarmed. And now you should choose how to deal with it. In single-player games, you probably just save/try/load on fault and then try to become better character to get loot. In permadeath you probably avoid it. That's player's choise and concequencies. But if you put high perc demands on it so all player will try and get killed by trap, noone will called fun. And if this a permadeath mmo, so you loose not a couple of hours but a couple of months of your life, most people just rage-quit, IMO.
So again, don't punish player just for their wish to play your game. Make a challange they choose to accept or avoid, not accept or die.