Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby strpk0 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:23 pm

MagicManICT wrote:And nobody is trying to say this should play like a MOBA. (it does, though, doesn't it?)


I'm aware of that, what's strange to me is that everybody seems to credit or discredit game mechanics strictly by how "OP", "unbalanced", or "too powerful" they are, almost as if the entire goal of all games was about everything being in balance and making perfect sense instead of simply being fun and enjoyable or meaningful in some way to the experience. For example:

shubla wrote:Horses should only be used for getting from place A to place B. Not for farming, chopping trees and sewing!
You can even enter houses while riding horses :roll:


Granger wrote:As the combination of a horse with a lifted boat containing a raft makes travel into unknown territories easy and straightforward (as it turns water from being an obstacle to a minor annoyance as of the clicking involved) one could argue that this might deserve a little nerf. Lifting stuff (like logs, corpses, ...) when out and about is a nice feature though and removing it would be quite annoying. Increasing the drain on pony power while having something lifted could be a reasonable compromise.

Spending the whole life on a horse - while farming, cooking, crafting, mining, whatnot - on the other hand is IMHO silly and should get the axe. Could be implemented in the form of auto-unmounting when performing object interactions as stuff isn't reachable from horseback (possibly with auto-mounting when the action has completed, for convenience) and jorb adding some nice animations for mounting/unmounting that waste a second or two in each direction could be enough to end on-horse everything (as walking would be faster from lacking the delays to hop on/off between movements).

Also riding could impact the perception of characters, as looking from higher up might lead to no longer noticing certain things down on the ground.


Hence why I make the comparison to a MOBA, where it's common for players to complain that x or y champions are too OP and need to be nerfed, etc.

And just in general it seems odd to me to consider negatively changing such a tiny, arguably QoL mechanic as horses for no other apparent reason than "I think it's dumb" while there are still actual fundamental problems with other, vastly more important aspects of the game, like the FEP system where you can easily ignore the hunger mechanic entirely and gain stats in the tens of thousands or the quests that have basically turned progression through curiosities into pocket change in comparison, and made experience go from an expensive resource that you had to be careful with how you spent it into a complete and disposable joke.

If you're going to implement an update that undoubtedly only makes the game less fun to play (like nerfing horses would be) while also ignoring the real problems, then it's clear that the net result of said update is that the game will be less fun and still broken afterwards, hence why it's questionable whether making said change is a good decision at all.

But more worrying to me is the trend of overcomplicating every aspect of the game with weird little mechanics like "you can't lift anything while on a horse because fuck you lol" or "you can't harvest while on a horse" instead of simplifying the game and taking advantage of its positive aspects. If you're going to introduce horses then cool, do that, but don't make me have to maintain a mental decision tree of when I should and shouldn't or can/can't use a horse at a constant risk of being told by the game "nah, can't use horse for this bro" and having to dismount and stash the horse away. If you're going to allow players to gain stats in the tens of thousands then cool, do that, but also remove the useless hunger mechanic. And if quests are now the hot thing to do for progression then why keep curiosities around?
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby Granger » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:42 am

strpk0 wrote:[post above]

This horse discussion was spawned by
loftar wrote:... thoughts on ... a reasonable form of compensation for the benefits of being mounted?

so regarding your whataboutism I suggest you revisit the relevant topics about the (in your view) more problematic mechanics and bump these, preferably with new and exciting arguments on why these should be worked on.

strpk0 wrote:But more worrying to me is the trend of overcomplicating every aspect of the game with weird little mechanics like "you can't lift anything while on a horse because fuck you lol" or "you can't harvest while on a horse" instead of simplifying the game and taking advantage of its positive aspects. If you're going to introduce horses then cool, do that, but don't make me have to maintain a mental decision tree of when I should and shouldn't or can/can't use a horse at a constant risk of being told by the game "nah, can't use horse for this bro" and having to dismount and stash the horse away. If you're going to allow players to gain stats in the tens of thousands then cool, do that, but also remove the useless hunger mechanic. And if quests are now the hot thing to do for progression then why keep curiosities around?

I might misread you here, but: did just argue that the game should dumb down and present one and exactly only one path of action - because thinking hurts?

Re-reading the fullquote you made of my post might also make you notice that I suggested something that dosn't boil down to remove/disable it - but to make doing X from a horse convenient (even more then now) when done once in a while, but into a waste of time when 24/7'ing a horse as a motorized wheelchair, so horses are meaningful instead of a generic speed bonus to everything.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby strpk0 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:57 pm

Granger wrote:This horse discussion was spawned by
loftar wrote:... thoughts on ... a reasonable form of compensation for the benefits of being mounted?

so regarding your whataboutism I suggest you revisit the relevant topics about the (in your view) more problematic mechanics and bump these, preferably with new and exciting arguments on why these should be worked on.


As I mentioned that was just me pointing to actual, problematic balancing issues that have gone completely unaddressed, in order to illustrate my confusion as to why horses are being deemed as a problem all of the sudden, while those are largely ignored. I didn't come here to complain about those mechanics being broken, nor do I have any interest in further pressing the matter on them.

Granger wrote:Re-reading the fullquote you made of my post might also make you notice that I suggested something that dosn't boil down to remove/disable it - but to make doing X from a horse convenient (even more then now) when done once in a while, but into a waste of time when 24/7'ing a horse as a motorized wheelchair, so horses are meaningful instead of a generic speed bonus to everything.


And my point is, why do you believe that something like this is worth implementing?
I don't get why doing everything on a horse is such a terrible thing, and the arguments thus far have boiled down to what (seems to me) like "it's too strong", or "it doesn't make logical sense to me". Both very questionable arguments because:
1. It's not that big of a deal, it's just people being able to do stuff faster while on a horse, arguably something that is strictly QoL and a direct result of them having progressed in the game far enough to own horses.
2. It doesn't need to make logical sense to be a good mechanic.

Does such an argument justify the potential tens of hours of work of having to convert every conceivable action into your system of mounting/dismounting when doing them, and also the technical debt such a system would add, of having to consider said mechanic in the future whenever adding any sort of new action into the game that could possibly also be done while on a horse? Does such an argument justify what ultimately boils down to nerfing the horse mechanic by adding X Y or Z tweak to the mechanic to discentivize making constant use of them?

It just seems to me like overcomplicating a mechanic that I, personally, (and seemingly a good number of people in this thread too) simply find fun and unique to this game, for the sake of a pretty weak (and IMO overused nowadays) argument that smells of "balance is everything in a game and trumps everything else".
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby ctopolon4 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:52 pm

just add travel weariness to everything (roads, tp hf, tp knarr, horses) and here will ne no more talking that its OP
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby strpk0 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:02 pm

ctopolon4 wrote:just add travel weariness to everything (roads, tp hf, tp knarr, horses) and here will ne no more talking that its OP

+ 1

Travel weariness to breathing too, if you forget to lower your travel weariness while playing you start to asphixiate to death. Playing's too god damn OP.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby Granger » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:46 pm

strpk0 wrote:
ctopolon4 wrote:just add travel weariness to everything (roads, tp hf, tp knarr, horses) and here will ne no more talking that its OP

+ 1

Travel weariness to breathing too, if you forget to lower your travel weariness while playing you start to asphixiate to death. Playing's too god damn OP.

Convincing argument, best ever made here.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:16 am

MagicManICT wrote: I know there's a lot of larpers here who want that safe game, but I came to Haven because it wasn't safe.


LARPers, of which I begrudgingly include myself (Digital RP isn't LARPing, but that's another argument) hardly want things to be simple and easy. Seriously, what's LARPy about not having any threat to face or deal with? Nothing.

I, speaking for myself, want that threat and level of difficulty. LARPers generally want things harder and more realistic, not easier and more convenient.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby Aceb » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:25 am

Lunarius_Haberdash wrote:
MagicManICT wrote: I know there's a lot of larpers here who want that safe game, but I came to Haven because it wasn't safe.


LARPers, of which I begrudgingly include myself (Digital RP isn't LARPing, but that's another argument) hardly want things to be simple and easy. Seriously, what's LARPy about not having any threat to face or deal with? Nothing.

I, speaking for myself, want that threat and level of difficulty. LARPers generally want things harder and more realistic, not easier and more convenient.


And those people usually can get obstacles for themselfs or handicap them in a way it's harder for'em. No one holds You, to make your own life harder.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby Granger » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:26 pm

strpk0 wrote:
Granger wrote:Re-reading the fullquote you made of my post might also make you notice that I suggested something that dosn't boil down to remove/disable it - but to make doing X from a horse convenient (even more then now) when done once in a while, but into a waste of time when 24/7'ing a horse as a motorized wheelchair, so horses are meaningful instead of a generic speed bonus to everything.


And my point is, why do you believe that something like this is worth implementing?

That's simple: because of
loftar wrote:
Granger wrote:Spending the whole life on a horse - while farming, cooking, crafting, mining, whatnot - on the other hand is IMHO silly and should get the axe.

That has been my thought, too.

which I predicted from his posts before - that made me suggest something that, while being more complex to implement than simply disabling interactions while on a horse, wouldn't be completely unfun compared to what we have now.

I really hope you haven't convinced loftar that my suggestion is too complicated, because else we'll likely have to manually dismount for everything (and run after the horse afterwards) in the future.
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Re: Headsup: Change to movement implementation

Postby strpk0 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Granger wrote:I really hope you haven't convinced loftar that my suggestion is too complicated, because else we'll likely have to manually dismount for everything (and run after the horse afterwards) in the future.


Loftar is the one that actually knows how the server works and how difficult/easy it would be to implement something like that, I can only guesstimate. I doubt very much that anything I say would convince him that it's too time consuming to implement if it really is not, so I don't really understand the concern here.

And as for having to dismount for everything, then that's really their call as devs. All I know is while I still played you could basically do everything while on a horse. The fact that you can't do some object-related things now while on them (like ropewalks and whatnot) was caused by people complaining about the buggy animations as far as I can tell.

But if the devs are going that direction of kneecapping horses then that's already a decided thing. If anything I'd hope they'd just leave horses as they were originally, and focus on making the game more fun to play, not more tedious for arbitrary reasons.
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