Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby terechgracz » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:38 pm

MagicManICT wrote:I mean, doesn't the client you use have some pretty bot-like functionality built in, or are you telling me you only use the standard client?

I thought farming etc. are server-sided, they're too smooth to be client-sided.
MagicManICT wrote:Only if a game makes an effort to discourage their use.... and then how do you prove someone is using bots??

You can't discourage botting by changing game rules, you can only discourage it by banning people using them, but the problem is the line between if some basic QoL scripts are bannable or only whole infrastructure botting. Imo crafting bots, foraging bots, pepperbots, mining bots, 24/7h smelter bots are bannable because people will just run them 24/7 and wait for their goods to magically appear. Bots or rather scripts that fill ovens/smelters/stockpiles which you run while playing normally aren't enough for banning because most of the time the player is actually looking at it or mb checking wiki or chatting.

So actually, devs should teleport randomly checking what is going on in the world, prospecting big villages probably, because they're more prone to create botted industry. When village is caught on botting then is nuked by killing every player in village(or some sort of punishment, would need some investigating before nuking whole village). When devs catches someone grabbing forageables gathered by bots he would be automatically killed too. Also there could be awarded dev capes/botted stuff if they report botters. Not everything can be caught, but the most gamebreaking stuff can.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby MagicManICT » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:43 pm

terechgracz wrote: you can only discourage it by banning people using them,

No, you can't. Just look at world of warcraft. Look at any korean MMO and the software they require you to install. Look at what any "competitive" game has had to do to try and prevent it. Banning doesn't do jack shit. They throw tens of millions at the problem collectively, annually. There's an entire branch of computer science dedicated to such things, both the development of a "Turing engine" and the detection of them.

To note: I really don't want to get into this conversation here, but players need to realize playing on a computer is completely different than what is playing a board or card game... Let's not forget to add in that anyone that can sit and play for 12, 14, 20 hours a day is going to be extremely farther ahead of anyone that can only play 2 to 4 no matter the game, unless the game is purely skill based. In skill games, the person that can dedicate more time to learning the game will eventually come out ahead of the weekend warrior, even if the person with little time already has some skill in that type of game.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby terechgracz » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:03 pm

MagicManICT wrote:
terechgracz wrote: you can only discourage it by banning people using them,

No, you can't. Just look at world of warcraft. Look at any korean MMO and the software they require you to install. Look at what any "competitive" game has had to do to try and prevent it. Banning doesn't do jack shit. They throw tens of millions at the problem collectively, annually. There's an entire branch of computer science dedicated to such things, both the development of a "Turing engine" and the detection of them.

You can punish people, just for justice, because they're scums. Setting bot in haven needs some more thought than in WoW. You need to spend more time hard working on building overall infrastructure needed to start botting. In WoW you need character which can be bought either from legal sources(insta leveling) or from other players, you can stash your goods in private places which are somewhat abstract(others don't see your vaults etc.), in haven everything is publicly seen(except inventories which can hold limited amount of goods) so you need village to hoard them. Making some collateral damage while banning people will be discouragement to bot. And WoW is somewhat different game with it's core ideas, I really don't care if people bot when i play WoW, because im enjoying myself anyway. In haven I hate the thought people can have setted bots which works like complex mechanism. In haven I hate the thought that because there are bots, developers make game worse by implementing bot discouragement mechanics instead punishing them like worms they are and cleansing society.
MagicManICT wrote:To note: I really don't want to get into this conversation here, but players need to realize playing on a computer is completely different than what is playing a board or card game... Let's not forget to add in that anyone that can sit and play for 12, 14, 20 hours a day is going to be extremely farther ahead of anyone that can only play 2 to 4 no matter the game, unless the game is purely skill based. In skill games, the person that can dedicate more time to learning the game will eventually come out ahead of the weekend warrior, even if the person with little time already has some skill in that type of game.

Ok, no need to talk about effectiveness of getting rid of botting, but some kind of world cleansing must happen sometime.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby shubla » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:11 pm

Banning people for botting may work for the first few weeks or so.
But soon people would start making bots that would be more harder to detect.
With only little bits of effort you can disguise bots to be a lot like normal players. (Or at least, very hard to detect)
Making your bots public would increase chances of them being detected, so people would keep their bots private.
Thus, only small subset of people would use bots, and gain lots of unfair advantage.
Currently, at least some basic bots are available to all.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby wlkk011 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:56 pm

azrid wrote:
wlkk011 wrote:just one question: if all those buged players united to fight HH and only can get almost balance, what HH using to fight? anyone can tell me they are not using the same bug? i don't believe anyone don't use bugs can have any chance to do a "fight" with those who use bugs.

You can get really high fep foods without cheating. It just takes more effort and resources to make.


i know i can use something like drift kelp to boost fep for food, but, the quantity is not enough for too many people, and, if regular food can give char same attributes like bugs food, how can we know which char using bug and wich not using? if bug can only make reasonable attributes, i don't think we would have this post here. bug, must make a huge advantage to regular, and not only one side player using it, because they are same, and now only one side punished.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby MagicManICT » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:28 pm

wlkk011 wrote:if regular food can give char same attributes like bugs food, how can we know which char using bug and wich not using

The devs clearly can track the food items used, although I'm not sure how detailed that information is. It's enough they were able to target one village and several players over a period of a month.

As far as after the declaration of this announcement, I'm sure they could if they wanted to, but the 100% bonus was doable by anyone using spices normally or with some of the local resources used to cook with.

My understanding is that, as of now, the tools have been corrected and shouldn't be an issue from here on out. People still need to look for issues, though.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby Kandarim » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:59 pm

As for the discussion relating to bots, I think that jorbtar's stance on it is amazing, refreshing, and really practical.
I have seen this from both sides, and I am aware of the drawbacks/shortcomings, but I think their philosophy on it is perfect:

http://www.havenandhearth.com/portal/paq wrote:I hear bots are a problem in this game, so why don't you ban them?
We get this question a lot, as well as the related question...

And, also, why don't you ban custom clients while you're at it?
... and the short answer to both those questions is that we can't. Bots and custom clients are both, in the philosophical fundamental of things, only means of generating server input, and as long as the server input they generate is technically legal, there is very little about it that stands out as being obvious and easy targets for anything resembling a "ban". Bots and custom clients are, in short, hard to impossible to meaningfully detect, and the means of detection can usually be circumvented.

... but all other games ban bots?
They may be trying to. Whether their efforts match the results is another matter entirely.

... so what's your take on them, then?
Our philosophy has been, and remains, that we – rather than spend our time fighting losing battles – should focus on building a better game with fewer incentives to bot. We try to take botting as a sign of a broken game mechanic, rather than as a sign of broken players.

... and what about the custom clients, again?
We feel strongly that the design of coherent and optimally functional user interfaces – what the client fundamentally is – leaves plenty of room for personal tastes. No one size fits all, and if you're unhappy with the standard size we provide, we take no issue with you retooling it to suit your own preferences.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby Avu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:57 pm

It sounds good but it's a load of crap. There is no designing around bots. Bots can and do everything better. The only difficulty is in making the bot but once you have it you have everything much easier than those that don't have access.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby Agrik » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:15 am

Avu wrote:Bots can and do everything better.
There is one thing that bots don't do better: thinking. At least, for now.

Bots are still generally worse and very limited at guessing, self-educating (or self-learning? feel free to correct if I'm wrong with word choice), and... bot-constructing :) though people try really hard to ensure evolution of AI by choosing only the best to survive.

Thus I agree with devs. Bots are result of game mechanics that don't require thinking, and the best long-term way to fight bots is to change mechanics. Well, game developing. While punishing obvious rule breakers by the way.
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Re: Divine Intervention: Helfors/Never Neverland, Roasted

Postby terechgracz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:31 am

Agrik wrote:
Avu wrote:Bots can and do everything better.
There is one thing that bots don't do better: thinking. At least, for now.

Bots are still generally worse and very limited at guessing, self-educating (or self-learning? feel free to correct if I'm wrong with word choice), and... bot-constructing :) though people try really hard to ensure evolution of AI by choosing only the best to survive.

Thus I agree with devs. Bots are result of game mechanics that don't require thinking, and the best long-term way to fight bots is to change mechanics. Well, game developing. While punishing obvious rule breakers by the way.

Oh god. We're talking about game, not designing philosophical systems!
Botting allows one player become infinitely many players. That's power of botting. There is no human so smart that can match normal programming botter in effectiveness. Even combat bots are better than players(1v1 doesn't need much decision making, provided you fight in clear space).
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