Game Development: Cigar Box

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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Agrik » Tue May 14, 2019 2:22 pm

pppp wrote:But spending more time you can solve more partial challenges thus achieve more "winning".
Assuming two identical people (as: 100% brain clones) starting 1 month one after another, and spending the same time, playing the same way, the first one will be always ahead.
The challenge is to design the game environment in such a way that by playing "in the same way" (or more realistically "as good") relative distance between the two players will diminish over time.
That's where a decay should be used, probably. While many people are afraid of it, it seems to be the part of reality absence of which tilts games about-something-realistic too much. Time as a downside, so each player have proportionally to what he achieved per time spent. Thus when the second player have spent 1 month, he'd have what he had done per that month, and the first one will have his activity divided by two months of corresponding decay.

Of course, this won't totally nullify first one's advantage. The snowballing effect will still be there, and I'm not sure it should be somehow get rid of. And the first player will be more experienced anyways, but this will be meaningful in the terms of real life at least.

Granger wrote:http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59967
Thanks for the link. Were it not only about char stats, I'd thought to move there.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby pppp » Tue May 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Agrik wrote:That's where a decay should be used, probably. While many people are afraid of it, it seems to be the part of reality absence of which tilts games about-something-realistic too much. Time as a downside, so each player have proportionally to what he achieved per time spent. Thus when the second player have spent 1 month, he'd have what he had done per that month, and the first one will have his activity divided by two months of corresponding decay.

Alts, rise and rule.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Uriel » Tue May 14, 2019 4:18 pm

pppp wrote:
Agrik wrote:That's where a decay should be used, probably. While many people are afraid of it, it seems to be the part of reality absence of which tilts games about-something-realistic too much. Time as a downside, so each player have proportionally to what he achieved per time spent. Thus when the second player have spent 1 month, he'd have what he had done per that month, and the first one will have his activity divided by two months of corresponding decay.

Alts, rise and rule.

Yeah...no.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Agrik » Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm

pppp wrote:Alts, rise and rule.
Why?

Alts won't change anything with objects getting wear from use and from, errr... natural environment. While each alt will raise amount of aging a player is exposed to: obviously 2 chars will lose 2 times more stats per unit of time combined. With any progressive scale he could have had (?) one char with higher stats at the same level of activity.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby pppp » Tue May 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Because with alts one can shift bad effects to one char and good effects to the other char.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Agrik » Wed May 15, 2019 12:40 am

Decay and wear are not "effects" that can be shifted.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby pppp » Wed May 15, 2019 7:14 am

But you can do all production on an alt and use main char for fight only. That's already happening, though because of different reasons.
In other words, wear and decay an alt, while claiming achievements on main.
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Agrik » Wed May 15, 2019 1:56 pm

Decay is time-based. It does not care who does what, it just applies everywhere.
Wear is use-based. It does not care about different chars, it applies on what is being used. If durability would be a different counter beside Q, then maybe better crafter should make more durable things while better user should wear them slower, but that's all. And that's normal, a division of labor (?).

If you mean char stats, it's a bit complex issue, and I hesitate somewhat because this thread seems to be not the right place for such a prolonged discussion. So that's a question to you and moderators: can all this discussion be moved to a C&I topic, starting from my comment "That's a rabbit hole, yes... I daresay a) variants are not much a game", if I make a topic there with a proper title and, probably, some description?
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby pppp » Wed May 15, 2019 2:53 pm

Character decay is shit. Period. Real time based decay is even more shit.
Why would I bother doing anything if after taking a couple day break I will be in the starting point.
Item/structure decay is managed by claims and that part is fine.

Wear is already applicable to some items, notably armor and knarrs. There are already voices to allow repairing armor.
Armor having variable durability is a thing since early legacy. Symbel has durability too. You should know that.
Production capabilities of well led towns are big enough to make any wear on items irrelevant.

Wear applied to the character itself is something I could swallow, under a number of conditions, primarily if the cost is applied to building the char in much greater degree than to using it.

Agrik wrote:can all this discussion be moved

Yeah, move it, perhaps under "How do I" or similar. /sarc
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Re: Game Development: Cigar Box

Postby Agrik » Wed May 15, 2019 5:45 pm

pppp wrote:Character decay is shit. Period. Real time based decay is even more shit.
I don't get the idea of throwing "Period." into the face of an opponent and continuing to type, but it is up to you, I suppose.

pppp wrote:Why would I bother doing anything if after taking a couple day break I will be in the starting point.
After a couple of days it would lose a small part Q-wise, if you are not a top-grinding team.
Do you prefer to bother doing anything when world wipe looms in a couple of months regardless of you taking a break then?

pppp wrote:Item/structure decay is managed by claims and that part is fine.
In general, yes. But there are two things that disturb me:
1. Claim upkeep is unrelated to the cost of things it saves from decay. So the cost of maintaining a houseful of Q200 items and a knarr is equal to the cost of maintaining a noob's hut with dugout. Effectively a noob spends more % of his wealth daily to keep it than top-tier player, and this totally reverses the idea of challenge.
2. Item Qs is left unaffected at all.

pppp wrote:Wear is already applicable to some items
Items are not the trouble when Q grows endlessly anyways. And until wear impedes Q spiralling somehow, it is not an effective solution by itself.

pppp wrote:Production capabilities of well led towns are big enough to make any wear on items irrelevant.
Until wear would decrease Q of means of production, for example.

pppp wrote:primarily if the cost is applied to building the char in much greater degree than to using it.
What do you mean by "building a char"? Feeding and curiositing it?

pppp wrote:Yeah, move it, perhaps under "How do I" or similar. /sarc
I haven't seen there a topic by jorbtar on "How do we make a game" though.
If serious, you prefer not to move existing posts, right?
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