Game Development: Season's Greetings

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby Kostetus » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:05 am

loftar wrote:Just for the record, this particular issue was fixed (in the default client) with the latest patch.

Agreed, my bad, typed the post first & only then read the latest patchnote, was kinda frustrated with this damn winter & inability to progress brought with it. Dont get me wrong, i like winter, well , the idea of it, defenetly not current realisation, as for now it looks more like a convinient excuse for not playing & i seriously doubt this was the goal. I mean we've sort of lost a large part of the game (or grind :lol: ) while getting a bunch of technical issues (we havn't got a slightest idea when they'll be fixed or wether they'll be fixed at all),a new mount & ability to cross frosen bodies of water.
PS guys, am i the only 1 having difficulties crossing narrow fords while ice start melting?
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby Agrik » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:32 pm

MagicManICT wrote:While opinions vary, I will say that some of the requests that have been posted in this section of the forums can be labeled by a vast majority of the player base as "more annoying."
Totally possible, even though "player base" is a scope too vague to deduce something objective from its opinion.

MagicManICT wrote:Nice analogy, and games, much like cars, get tuned for those 1%ers. Unlike cars, you have to tune games because not doing so means players will exploit them, which is a major issue when a game has any portion of it online, and can even be considered critical (and a game killer) when the game is always online.
Thanks, it took quite an effort...
Sorry, I don't get what can be the "game tuning" you mention that is alike to a car tuning for 1% of racers and has something to do with exploits. Any example?
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:11 pm

Agrik wrote:Sorry, I don't get what can be the "game tuning" you mention that is alike to a car tuning for 1% of racers and has something to do with exploits. Any example?

Tuning code is much like tuning an auto engine--looking at individual parts and figuring out what can be changed to make it perform better. The techniques may not be quite the same since the medium is different, but it's a lot of trial and error and testing for both. The end goal, however, is different. In a car, it's to squeeze every bit of horsepower, torque, speed, and other performance factors. Otherwise, a car that isn't running at 100% of it's capability is still drivable and usually considered safe (clear exceptions, of course, like the brakes being out, no working lights, etc).

Software that isn't performing it's job strictly and exactly has conditions where things break down, too, but instead of performing at a lower level, it becomes exploitable and hackable. For an average user, this usually isn't a problem as they're not going to seek out the exploits and holes to break the software. They're just going to use it for what they need it for. One the issues we had in the past were wall and cliff jumping (before cliff climbing was an actual mechanic). In games, typically single player, these sorts of issues are seen as quaint little easter eggs or fun parts as long as they don't break the game. In multiplayer games, especially those with any form of competition, this becomes a real issue due to some players seeking any edge they can over others, even to the point of 'cheating.'

One big example from the past was the "wall jump" issue. Anyone that has been around more than a few years can likely name someone they knew that got raided this way. it was a problem for even the largest factions. Others can be named, too. There were more than a few combat hacks over the years.

Because of holes in the designs or bugs in code, exploits emerged. It's this way with every bit of software ever made. Cars that don't perform at 100%? Safe as long as the driver is competent and aware of the mechanical limitations. Software that isn't 100%? Always a risk to the user and developer.

I've always likened computers to cars. you can be a simple driver getting back and forth to work, you can be a tinkerer fixing your own cars (or computers), or take the leap into software and build your own systems. Good thing about software is you don't need a lot of money (or getting your hands dirty).

Agrik wrote:Totally possible, even though "player base" is a scope too vague to deduce something objective from its opinion.

Let me rephrase that: "active forum members." (Two old sayings amongst my friends: "It's just a theory, it could be wrong" and "Theories are like assholes--everyone has one..." and I'll stop that one there just to be polite.)
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby Agrik » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:01 pm

MagicManICT wrote:Tuning code is much like tuning an auto engine--looking at individual parts and figuring out what can be changed to make it perform better. The techniques may not be quite the same since the medium is different, but it's a lot of trial and error and testing for both. The end goal, however, is different. In a car, it's to squeeze every bit of horsepower, torque, speed, and other performance factors. Otherwise, a car that isn't running at 100% of it's capability is still drivable and usually considered safe (clear exceptions, of course, like the brakes being out, no working lights, etc).

Software that isn't performing it's job strictly and exactly has conditions where things break down, too, but instead of performing at a lower level, it becomes exploitable and hackable. For an average user, this usually isn't a problem as they're not going to seek out the exploits and holes to break the software. They're just going to use it for what they need it for. One the issues we had in the past were wall and cliff jumping (before cliff climbing was an actual mechanic). In games, typically single player, these sorts of issues are seen as quaint little easter eggs or fun parts as long as they don't break the game. In multiplayer games, especially those with any form of competition, this becomes a real issue due to some players seeking any edge they can over others, even to the point of 'cheating.'
I see. Tuning as replacing parts for more safe ones. It's the same. Even here:
MagicManICT wrote:Because of holes in the designs or bugs in code, exploits emerged. It's this way with every bit of software ever made. Cars that don't perform at 100%? Safe as long as the driver is competent and aware of the mechanical limitations. Software that isn't 100%? Always a risk to the user and developer.
Umm, no? A car in a not-perfect condition can have a steering or brakes malfunction, which is certainly a risk to the user and others. So, replacing faulty and low-quality parts of a car is exactly the same upgrade of safety as replacing faulty parts of code.

Yet I think the anti-exploit "tuning" is more a move against previously noted 1%, not for them. I see its car analogue being a speed limiter, ABS, or some other tech that disallows to reach a dangerous state.

MagicManICT wrote:Let me rephrase that: "active forum members."
Any limitations of such kind make a very biased subset of potential players. If one wants to measure the game as a game in general, he has to consider things more universal than "those who play now" or "those who write actively". Or, if one is content with having answers only for a current community... well, it's possible but he needs to answer at least to himself why he discards all other people. There may be a reason, but it needs to be checked. And anyways, no way things concluded from opinions of single community should be generalized "as is"...
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:30 pm

Agrik wrote:Umm, no? A car in a not-perfect condition can have a steering or brakes malfunction, which is certainly a risk to the user and others. So, replacing faulty and low-quality parts of a car is exactly the same upgrade of safety as replacing faulty parts of code.


Didn't really mean to derail this with a discussion of an analogy. Sometimes an analogy helps people understand why certain things function the way they do, sometimes it just confuses it more. The problem with the auto analogy relating to software is that cars have different definitions of "effectiveness" such as safety, performance, aerodynamics, etc. Software, at a technical level, also has a few various performance factors that the engineers aim for. Ideally, anything performing at 100% needs nothing changed, upgraded, or fixed. It's at its best performance it could be at. Engineers of any sort never aim for 100%, as they just can't afford it; it's not feasible to make things perfect. As a quick example, you aren't going to take your factory VW Golf through a rally car race and expect it to perform at even close to optimal. That car isn't at 100%. It's at factory, and depending on model, could be anywhere from 20-70% (no idea to the exact range as it's been too many years since I've dug into what kind of performance I could get out of a car). Gutting the drive train, suspension, and steering and replacing it with performance parts could bring it up to 90ish% of it's perfect performance. Even the finely tuned racing versions don't run at 100% because there are limitations placed by the racing leagues so that all cars perform within a certain standard of each other. Also, a car with malfunctioning brakes or steering, etc isn't running at 80% or even 50% effectiveness of factory standards. They're not running at all. Maybe call it 10% effective, as there is a "safe speed" you can roll down the road and expect the car to move without actually being a safety hazard. (10kmph, maybe? maybe by pushing it? Might just be better to call a tow truck, then.)
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby Agrik » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 am

MagicManICT wrote:Also, a car with malfunctioning brakes or steering, etc isn't running at 80% or even 50% effectiveness of factory standards. They're not running at all.
I agree with all except this. Car with brakes or steering in bad condition do run. Before the malfunction. They may be even viewed as somewhat good performing, as engine, drivetrain, interior, electrics may be really good. Not so a deepening crack in the metal of a systematically overloaded arm or a loose nut which weren't noticed because of insufficient testing.

Do I get it right that the analogue to bug "exploiters" would be car users stressing the equipment to the possible limit?
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Re: Game Development: Season's Greetings

Postby sMartins » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:58 pm

No, users stressing the equipment to the limit are still using the car as a car, eg for fun (if it's a race), to travel from A to B, etc ...
Exploiters use the car to break into a bank and rob it or a plane to crash against a couple of towers, the car is not a car anymore.
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