JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby jorb » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:57 pm

That time of the month, thus:

JorbStream, 20190831, Saturday, 19:00 UTC

http://twitch.tv/bruderbohne

Catch you there!

EDIT: YouTube link
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby jorb » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:19 pm

Thanks for the stream, everyone! YouTube link.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby pawnchito » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:36 am

Youre like a guerrila streamer. So mysterious and illusive. Hopefully one day I'll catch one live.
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby Dakkan » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:28 am

Damn, first time I missed a stream I think. I work Saturdays now.

Gridlines, bounding boxes, and badcam are useful for designing and building stuff. I know you don't like the idea of people making the game look worse on the client but we need features like these to make visually appealing stuff in-game.

Just implement some shitty skybox like some custom clients already have, it's a cheap massive improvement over shitty BLACK VOID. And it will only be visibly by people using the hated badcam anyway!

My only problem with W10 travel system was how polluted the world became with roadsigns. Road decay could be buffed to combat that.

Sexy business models. Best part of the stream.

You just called people who do hard work winners and autistic.

Yeah wait 2 minutes for that root you temporal slut.

You need different types of "endgame" for different players, because the playerbase is very heterogeneous in what they like about the game. Less focus overall on nerfing different aspects of the game into oblivion would be a good start though.

Image

Also you said word up this stream and you've said it before, and it always triggers this song for me.
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby ricky » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:24 am

re: keybindings
i do believe the most important implementation would be the ability to set your own keybindings. What's so important about this feature is that you would have to put all the available actions in one spot for the player to look at and reference. From there, you can just decide which actions you want the player to be able to do (drop all, withdraw all of 1 type, close all containers, etc), add which keybinding intuitively fits your schema, and from there the player can either accept or change the keybinding as they please.

re: ugly features
As the creators, i understand you have a certain artistic vision you wish the player to experience, but as the player, the experience I wish to have may differ from yours. The most notable example is cambad. For me, cambad is essential. being locked to 4 orthogonal views as well as a certain prescribed zoom distance really bothers me. And for what its worth, the two camps of players (cam ortho vs cam bad) are very stuck in their ways. Those who enjoy one version usually cant stand the other. I don't mind the void, and oftentimes play at angles where I dont even see it. Increasing the render distance isnt necessary, It would probably just encourage cam bad users to zoom out even further.

I also came here to say this:
Dakkan wrote:Gridlines, bounding boxes, and badcam are useful for designing and building stuff. I know you don't like the idea of people making the game look worse on the client but we need features like these to make visually appealing stuff in-game.

I use amber, and the features mentioned above are essential for me when building and designing. Placing objects with any precision at all requires bounding boxes.
As for the other ugly features such as disabling terrain smoothing, flattening terrain height, etc.: I use those features to make the game playable on my laptop when im away from my desktop. These features aren't strictly used for their PVP optimizations, they make the game run better on slower machines.

re: mechanically distinct boss fights
You briefly touched on the only viable option for fighting high-leveled creatures is cheesing, opposed to mechanic driven tactics. Having certain fights which are 'minigames' of sorts (harpooning whales is the lowest hanging fruit here) sounds like a fun alternative to cheesing/regular combat, as well as allowing low levelled/inexperienced players to interact with this content. You mention its difficult to create risk for players: either they cheese and risk nothing, or they die and lose their character. Another form of risk is material and time, you've hit this theme briefly with whales breaking knarrs, although players still find it easier to cheese whales with luring tactics(saving their knarrs and their character). Create more materially intensive methods to fight large creatures. For instance, if players had to chase whales using only a knarr and many harpoons and rope, the risk becomes losing their knarr and the tools used to catch the whale. Risk of death is lower, ability to cheese is gone as entering direct combat with a whale is no longer an option.

re:locality vs. travel, farming qualities & time gates
I feel you're emphasizing the role of travel and its correlation to locality too much. A location should not be important for its distance to another location. Being able to travel quickly between two villages is important for player interaction. What matters in terms of locality is what village A can offer to village B which village B can either not produce itself or cannot compete with in quality. This is currently hard to offer as most players are either at the bleeding edge of the quality grind and thus dont need to trade, or will never catch up and thus have nothing to trade. The example talked about on stream is farming. it's time gated and randomly rolled. Either you plant enough fields and harvest frequently enough to beat the curve, or you fall behind. This is where locality comes into play - if one location can consistently grow a higher quality plant - either by faster time gates or by better quality rolls - it can distinguish itself as the best area to grow certain crops. even if the buyers replant these crops, they do not have the location advantage which means the seller will still be able to produce a higher quality crop. Essentially, time gates are necessary, but could be variable based on factors outside of the player's control in order to create specialization, especially geographical specialization.
Have a question? Need help? Tired of people asking questions? Haven and Hearth Wiki.
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby iamahh » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:17 pm

I use Amber 1st for performance, not everyone is playing on a good computer

i understand disabling trees is not on the table, but options like shadows, antialising, terrains transitions and decorations makes some difference

badcam is great for compact bases, you need to change angle a lot
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby MagicManICT » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:27 pm

@dakkan, @ricky: have to completely agree about the bounding boxes and grid lines. I don't keep them on, but when I'm laying out stockpiles, buildings, and containers, they make a world of difference vs just "guessing" at best placement, even if they aren't 100% accurate.

ricky wrote:I feel you're emphasizing the role of travel and its correlation to locality too much. A location should not be important for its distance to another location. Being able to travel quickly between two villages is important for player interaction. What matters in terms of locality is what village A can offer to village B which village B can either not produce itself or cannot compete with in quality.

It's a good argument, and I agree with your points, but I think the solve is more players so that you don't have to travel clear across the map to interact with people. Until that point, I do think we're stuck with what we have. And as far as true locality for resources, we're too small to make it effective. I think it's worth the experiment, but with the current mechanics, the results are going to be very limited and not indicative of what a fully fleshed out world and game could be. People will have to decide to fight over owning said resources, raiding for it, or giving up on the fighting and trading as fairly as they think they can.

@jorb: I had a lot of those same feels about WoW, with the addition of "what a fucking rip-off of Everquest." The aggravating (to me) part is I don't even touch EQ anymore, but keep coming back to WoW.
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby Agrik » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:51 am

1. On locality and fast travel.
I see people wishing more "interaction" between players, and I agree this may be good. But... what kind of a "player interaction" we'd get if all the resources are equally accessible to everybody?

For now I can imagine only a contest. A fight. A war. I doubt that increase in warlike "player interactions" is what would be good for this game. There are many games about fighting everybody already, the competition would be high. I'm not against PvP in general, but I see currently existing PvP as too heavily dependent on the sheer time spent, so the increase of its impact on the game can be detrimental (even more power for those who started with the world, over newbies).

It is highly understandable that warriors want to be able to engage in any fight in the world. But I suppose, as long as this game is not exclusively a short-session fighting game, the reasons why some characters are unable to engage in some particular fight may be a part of a higher-level gameplay.

Maybe I'm missing something and then I'm wrong, so I'd like to understand what kind of "player interaction" people are trying to have more by effectively shrinking the world.

2. On timers and catch-up.
As I see it, timers do not help (nor their absence change much). The difference lies between time-rewarding and accomplishment-rewarding. To put it simply, gameplay needs more challenges that can't be achieved by mindless repetitive actions. Challenges for brains, not for butts (or bots). A game is made by the gameplay itself, its process and complexity of actions, not by the size of rewards given after.

As for challenges about strong animals, well, you don't have to make new animals. Just "stretch" the list of existing ones so they don't become insignificant that fast. And I have to add that the reason why it's hard to keep animals good and balanced challenge is endless Q growth.

3. On animals fighting each other.
It would be more realistic. At least predators have to attack prey... sometimes. That's the part of solution as well: you can adjust quantity of corpses by adjusting odds of attack. The second part of solution I see is that predators should eat their prey. Eating may be implemented as effectively "butchering" it and leaving only a skeleton if uniterrupted. And a skeleton needs less decay hits than a whole corpse to disappear.

4. On hats.
Maybe the efforts you spend on drawing these hats each week doesn't worth the difference in silver and gold subscribers? Maybe you can repeat some previous hats? It calls for a real discussion with the game community, I'd say.
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby MagicManICT » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:58 am

Agrik wrote:Maybe the efforts you spend on drawing these hats each week doesn't worth the difference in silver and gold subscribers? Maybe you can repeat some previous hats? It calls for a real discussion with the game community, I'd say.

We've had this discussion in the past. It's a torn subject. I dont' recall when/where the discussion was. @anyone: Someone have a link? (Must be a bad night for my google skills... or something.)
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Re: JorbStream 20190831, 19:00 UTC

Postby Granger » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:13 am

The problem with hats and silver/gold subscription is that it turned the subscriptions from 'throwing more money at the developers' into a hat flat rate. People now feel entitled to get enough of them to warrant having bought the more expensive subscription tier. IMHO it was a mistake to give the patch hats for free, but maybe the Devs did the math on the purchases and saw a need to motivate people to shell out more (or on a regular basis).

The post about hats might haven been viewtopic.php?f=40&t=64697&p=819096&hilit=hats#p819096
⁎ Mon Mar 22, 2010 ✝ Thu Jan 23, 2020
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