Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Fostik » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:54 am

Still waiting, and cant normally play without satiations rework. Please, remove it.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Rexz » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:25 am

jorb wrote:Randomness is something we try to intentionally avoid. Having the outcome of a fight be determined by a one off critical hit is terrible.


The difference in the range of damage done based on distance is still valid no? Please address the entirety of my suggestion :3
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby jorb » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:28 am

Rexz wrote:
jorb wrote:Randomness is something we try to intentionally avoid. Having the outcome of a fight be determined by a one off critical hit is terrible.


The difference in the range of damage done based on distance is still valid no? Please address the entirety of my suggestion :3


I don't think it matters much how or when the randomness is applied. I don't want intentionally random elements in the combat system.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby shubla » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:39 am

jorb wrote:Randomness is something we try to intentionally avoid. Having the outcome of a fight be determined by a one off critical hit is terrible.

I don't see much difference to having the outcome of fight to be determined by one off mistake that you made.
There must be randomness in fights, or else they will be boring.

I mean, if you are aiming for combat where the actual player's skills matter, not only his characters, then there will be randomness element added by the player himself (lag, how good day he has, does he guess correctly what he should do etc.), so does it really matter if part of this randomness is artificially added?
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Cayur » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:34 am

shubla wrote:
I mean, if you are aiming for combat where the actual player's skills matter, not only his characters, then there will be randomness element added by the player himself (lag, how good day he has, does he guess correctly what he should do etc.), so does it really matter if part of this randomness is artificially added?


Yes it does matter, at least if you die now you can always figure out why it was and possibly learn from it. And next time you won't make the same mistake. But if there's randomness and just dying to a 1% crit hit, it'll just be bullshit. Might be good for the underdog but for the person whose put hours into their character just to die to randomness mechanics would be so demoralizing.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby DDDsDD999 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:24 pm

jorb wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:Haven't played since this update because no one wants to play it. Valhalla is also impossible to test anything with because everything is completely unrealistic. But it was already the case that the non-targeted moves were only usable if your target was trying to run at you, don't see how go for the jugular on steroids changes it. This whole system of chaser has to use the targeted moves while the runner either counter-attacks the one person or gets dog-piled seems dumb, whether it works or not. And we can't really test if it does because of how bad valhalla is.

I don't really see any positives to trying to force this system to work this way. By forcing one side to deal with targeting, this combat system doesn't really make anything better than the current combat system.


Why is it one sided? The move is available to both sides if they want to use it. You also said this.

Because every fight ever in this game has been one side running away from the side chasing it. The chasers will only be able to use these targeted moves, while the runners will just have to aim a backwards attack to stop them, and hope they have the ping to stop it.

jorb wrote:I take it you're pretty down on the whole thing, and prefer the existing system entirely? Do we agree that the present system is bad? Doesn't it suck that it is just a stat check?

The present system only really sucks in 1v1s, group fights are completely different. This system will just be a check on who has enough numbers to dog-pile someone,

jorb wrote:One of my motivations here is that 1v1, especially as it pertains to PvE, is a completely braindead stat check. I would like that to not be the case, and I'm fairly certain that this system handles that better.

Any 1v1 with this system between smart people has just been the person with high openings walking away to lower them. Trying to use a pursuit move in a 1v1 to counter defending just results in it getting cancelled every time (maybe it'll hit if they have to live in america or australia). Can't say anything about PvE, you haven't shown us anything.

jorb wrote:Given how "no one" (your words) wants to test it under anything but real circumstances anyway, that may just be what we'll have to do. People have always been down on every new iteration of combat, so I'm not sure what weight to ascribe your theorizing.

You could fix a ton of issues with the test server by giving it a somewhat realisitic map i.e. not just sprint terrain and snow. Some trees to test how these pursuit moves actually work would help.

No body is going to pvp this world, the only people who still play are in it for the larpy shit. Only feedback you're going to get if you add it is what animals are too strong and people trying to spar their few friends who still play.

jorb wrote:Does this system do anything actively worse than the presently running system? The result there right now would be pretty much the same, no?

This system has the massive problem of being at an insurmountable disadvantage trying to chase someone who decides they don't feel like fighting you. In the current system, disengaging from someone either requires you to pull some maneuver with clipping or the chaser to feel pressured enough to disengage. With this system, disengaging from someone is simply deciding to not participate, there's no point of tension where the enemy is on you, both of your openings are high, and a lot of damage can be done. If your openings get high, you walk in the opposite direction. Anytime the chaser tries to throw their body at you, you just hit back. The only time this is a problem is when you're so outnumbered the enemy can simply dog-pile you, which isn't a good balance for this system. Fighting with imbalanced numbers will consequently be awful.

Not being able to even hit your enemy because you have worse ping is a very bad change.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Mary_CZ » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:37 pm

If the bear will be with new combat- spin on its left leg and mammoth on its trunk, I'll enjoy the game. :D
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Sacraer » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:51 pm

jorb wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:Haven't played since this update because no one wants to play it. Valhalla is also impossible to test anything with because everything is completely unrealistic. But it was already the case that the non-targeted moves were only usable if your target was trying to run at you, don't see how go for the jugular on steroids changes it. This whole system of chaser has to use the targeted moves while the runner either counter-attacks the one person or gets dog-piled seems dumb, whether it works or not. And we can't really test if it does because of how bad valhalla is.

I don't really see any positives to trying to force this system to work this way. By forcing one side to deal with targeting, this combat system doesn't really make anything better than the current combat system.


Why is it one sided? The move is available to both sides if they want to use it. You also said this.

DDDsDD999 wrote:The system still just doesn't work, there's nothing to stop someone from just walking in the opposite direction from you because they feel like it.


I take it you're pretty down on the whole thing, and prefer the existing system entirely? Do we agree that the present system is bad? Doesn't it suck that it is just a stat check?


the existing battle system is not stats check in mass battles and has never been. this is stupid only in 1x1 combat
I can invite you to sparing in Valhalla and gather, say 5-10 people and you will participate in this, I am sure that you will change your mind

about the new combat, I think that it is not for this game but I really like animations, etc.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby jorb » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:20 pm

Sacraer wrote:the existing battle system is not stats check in mass battles and has never been. this is stupid only in 1x1 combat


Indeed, and I've never really argued otherwise, but the fact that the system is more fun in complex fights against intelligent opponents is true of any system, and says very little about its intrinsic characteristics.
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Re: Game Development: Patriotic Takedown

Postby Rexz » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:55 pm

jorb wrote:
Rexz wrote:
jorb wrote:Randomness is something we try to intentionally avoid. Having the outcome of a fight be determined by a one off critical hit is terrible.


The difference in the range of damage done based on distance is still valid no? Please address the entirety of my suggestion :3


I don't think it matters much how or when the randomness is applied. I don't want intentionally random elements in the combat system.


I am sad cuz you didn't read all that I said. Even without RNG you can still apply difference in damage based on the distance of the target from the assailant.

So if the person is right next to you, 30 damage, medium distance away from the conal/sweeping attack 20 damage, furthest away the target can possibly be hit by the attack 10 damage.

If you are chasing the target and the damaging attack is a lunge or locked-on chasing attach, furthest the target from you 10 damage, medium distance from target 20 damage, if you are very close to them and you use this then you hit them for maximum of 30.
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