Game Development: Summer Mound

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby Sephiron » Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:16 pm

Weetold wrote:
jorb wrote:
pawnchito wrote:I think winter was about to start or has started, will we be able to use these things this season or have to wait to prepare for winter and make them before winter begins?

They should work. Might want to touch your trees with some heat before they turn to winter, tho.

Is that a dagger I see in front of me?

Bot?
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby Cingal » Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:24 pm

How many times does a Full-Loot Open-PVP MMO community need to have the discussion about how making a new player's experience terrible drives them away?
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:55 pm

Pretty sure the new player experience is bad mostly because of the game, not the community. Jorbtar has killed more nabs, and wasted more time with unintuitive mechanics than I ever will
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby vatas » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:56 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:Pretty sure the new player experience is bad mostly because of the game, not the community. Jorbtar has killed more nabs, and wasted more time with unintuitive mechanics than I ever will

Kind of hate to admit this, but it's almost certain that SnuggleSnail is right.
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Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong) (I recommend you read it in it's entirety, but TL:;DR: Build a Palisade.)

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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby vatas » Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:47 pm

Basically, "don't hate the player, hate the game."

Not a direct analogy and it's comparison between two wildly different games but I'd like to use Classic/Vanilla World of Warcaft's PvP system as an example to help unravel this argument.

In Classic WoW, PvP rank is determined by how much "Honor" you gained in the previous week. Honor points are gained from killing non-grey (too low level) players and from winning and completing certain objectives in Battlegrounds.

Blatant "game problem" occurs when the threshold of enemies becoming grey is extended to the point that, at max level, lvl 48 players are still green to you. (This has led to joke that 48 is the "age of consent" in Azeroth.)

Game is telling you that if you go around ganking all the level 48-59 players, it actually REWARDS you for putting them in a no-win situation to the point they feel like they're just being griefed.

Of course in WoW, dying just means a corpsewalk, but if you are repeatedly killed you are simply locked out from playing the game.

Many Classic realms became de facto one-faction servers as the less populated faction players migrated away or simply quit in vicious cycle. This was exacerbated by the fact that in Classic, Honor system was introduced before Battlegrounds, and the method above was the only way to farm honor. Even when BGs were added earlier than planned in response to this, damage was already done and continued to be done as the more populated faction would still farm level 48-59 players while waiting in BG ques to maximize Honor per hour.


To go back to "don't hate the player, hate the game" -argument, for example in this case, SnuggleSnail was the one actively ruining these people's game experience to the point that they are justifiably unlikely to never give it another go. However, devs are guilty of following:
1) Insufficient warning that this is a PvP game. I've tried raising stink but it seems to be stuck in "will consider" -bin.
2) Effectively zero guidance in-game on how to build a secure Palisade. If you do figure out the system and put in effort to defend your base, the paradigm flips on its head and your base can not be sieged without excessive effort by the attacker and the "work smarter, not harder" method (as seen in first link) of pillaging people's bases becomes incentivized.
The most actively maintained Haven and Hearth Wiki (Not guaranteed to be up-to-date with all w14 changes.)

Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong) (I recommend you read it in it's entirety, but TL:;DR: Build a Palisade.)

Combat Guide (Overview, PVE, PVP) (Tells you how to try and escape, and make it less likely to die when caught.)
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby Nightdawg » Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:53 am

vatas wrote:snip



Two level 60 ooga booga mouth breathing horde retards ganked my warrior when I was leveling in redridge
I went there on my level 55 rogue and killed both of them, cause they're retards. Idiots that were only helped by the level when attacking level 19s, that proved to be actually mentally retarded when they actually had to fight a non-crippled human being. I was on combat pve spec, brother. I didn't even use Blind.

I agree that this game should point out that it is a PvP game, but there's sprucecaps that have been playing for 10+ years that complain about this every day and still refuse to get good. It's literally not that hard to get decent at this game, ESPECIALLY AFTER 10 YEARS. Let them be victims forever, they clearly have a fetish of being trash.

So yeah, hate the game AND the player, lmao
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby Zentetsuken » Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:18 pm

Nightdawg wrote:
vatas wrote:snip



Two level 60 ooga booga mouth breathing horde retards ganked my warrior when I was leveling in redridge
I went there on my level 55 rogue and killed both of them, cause they're retards. Idiots that were only helped by the level when attacking level 19s, that proved to be actually mentally retarded when they actually had to fight a non-crippled human being. I was on combat pve spec, brother. I didn't even use Blind.

I agree that this game should point out that it is a PvP game, but there's sprucecaps that have been playing for 10+ years that complain about this every day and still refuse to get good. It's literally not that hard to get decent at this game, ESPECIALLY AFTER 10 YEARS. Let them be victims forever, they clearly have a fetish of being trash.

So yeah, hate the game AND the player, lmao


Dishonest take.

You can't just decide to pull up your bootstraps and "learn pvp."

You can get good at combat and practice fighting until you can kill a bear or something without even having to cheese it, but the nuances of pvp are unintuitive and not something you can learn without the guidance of a "mouth breathing retard."

Anybody who idly sits in any of the social platforms of this game know that the approachability of said retards leaves a lot to be desired. I say this with confidence because despite not being a pvp titan, I am certainly one of them.

You can't even make the argument of it being a skill issues. Hard games and games with a steep learning curve are one thing, but please consider how unpleasant it must be for the average person to have to go out of their way and approach a mouth breathing retard in one of the many dens of autism in which they are publicly available to be pinged. Even though somebody like Snail might be a good guy under his trollish exterior, consider how undesirable it must be to essentially seek out the equivalent of the middle school kid who is bullying you and posting pictures of it and laughing about it with dozens of other retards in a public chat, and then having to ask them how you can improve your own bullying skills.

This is not a matter of "difficult gameplay." This is a matter of doing something that is socially unsavoury.

Again, not a skill issue, not a matter of "pulling up the bootstraps." It's that the knowledge for getting good at the pvp aspect of this game is gated behind the entrance and acceptance of a social circle of people who are largely repellent.
The amount of people who crawl up from the average player pool and are taken under the wing of a faction who engages in pvp, and are then shown the ropes and are given the custom client are tiny. You should know this because you have undergone this process.

Sure, there might be other small groups with less barrier or resistance to entry, but how often are they showing up in pvp fights or displaying their ability to defend against autists who have extreme advantages like custom clients and bots?

PVP is fundamentally imbalanced, terrible and unfun. 90% of the reason why you even like it is because of the social aspect that it is so deeply ingrained in. You are not playing haven PVP because it is a deeply complex and interesting mechanic that is very engaging. You are playing it because you like to dunk on people who are part of the big mouth breathing circle jerk of PVPers, and so you can make memey videos.

Haven PVP is only approachable via social conduits and only exists within them. Haven PVP is only FOR these social conduits. It has no reason to exist outside them and it rarely does. Outside of these social conduits Haven PVP is shallow, imbalanced and fundamentally terrible.

You guys have fucking custom client features that help you click on rabbits to get an edge on your ability to run and drink more efficiently. :lol:

Please stop being dishonest about PVP.

Not only is becoming a PVPer nearly impossible for the average player, but the average player needs to understand that there is no good reason to do this.

99% of the haven player base is watching this tiny circlejerk of mouthbreathers laughing and making videos and foot-stomping at each other and it looks like a real riot and a potential interest for those who are not in the know. The reality is that it's just a bunch of buddies screeching and repeating single word commands at each other on voice chat while they run in circles for 45 minutes around red highlight boxes on magically flattened terrain smashing either the custom client "drink" button or the "attack" button, all for the goal of being able to dickwave at one of their buddies on the opposite team when they get KOd.

The game is not the fun part, the circlejerk is.

I invite anybody who thinks that this sounds interesting to simply lurk in discord during the first couple months of a world, watch the drama and dickwaving. You can engage in it and be part of it without even having to beg a mouth breather to teach you anything, without having to worm your way in to a social circle and get access to a custom client that gives you a crazy advantage. You wont have to log in, you wont have to have people yell single words at you 40-50 times in strange eastern european accents, you wont have to learn to perfect and memorize an incredibly unfun system of running and drinking.

You can just BE a retard and nobody can stop you, and that's where all the fun is.

Just wave your dick and be repellent. Just BE a bully.

It's that easy.




TL;DR - REMOVE PVP
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby vatas » Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:58 pm

Yes, there can absolutely be scenarios where the player being "victimized" is at fault.

I remember a thread where someone complained that they tried to build a base and it was destroyed or someone else claimed it. OPs later responses revealed that they had tried to settle on a high-value spot and simply could not respond when someone, who also wanted the spot, contested it.
The most actively maintained Haven and Hearth Wiki (Not guaranteed to be up-to-date with all w14 changes.)

Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong) (I recommend you read it in it's entirety, but TL:;DR: Build a Palisade.)

Combat Guide (Overview, PVE, PVP) (Tells you how to try and escape, and make it less likely to die when caught.)
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby Nightdawg » Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:06 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:snip


I don't want to argue against your "remove pvp" meme, cause I personally like it.

But I'm just saying, if I can get decent at this game after a couple of worlds, so can they after 10 years.

I'm not the only one who said "hey guys can I join you in fights so I can learn some things?".
Also, there are a bunch of videos made by sacraer, ozzy and others where you can literally see how to pvp (felix had some good older videos showing some nice tricks too but he unlisted them I guess). Literally all I had to do before trying to pvp was to watch some videos and understand some basic things lmao.

But yes, if rolling stat caps are added, pvp will be balanced. I promise :lol:
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Re: Game Development: Summer Mound

Postby SnuggleSnail » Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:37 pm

Nightdawg wrote:But yes, if rolling stat caps are added, pvp will be balanced. I promise :lol:


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