Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby ThorleifCleaver » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:36 pm

I love how ore, which needs to be sorted for quality, stacks, but slag, which doesn't, does not. I also love how I'm apt to drop shit when I try to take it out of a stack because of the choice of buttons for stacking/unstacking. I also love how a stack of 5 meat is now apparently the current inventory standard and yet barter stands have no idea what a stack is.
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby Zentetsuken » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:42 pm

The sheer volume of things that were overlooked with this feature are scary.
There was 3 months worth of thought and development time that went in to this, as well as a "first draft" (bundles) and notes that came 2 days early.

At this point I am really struggling to understand what the development process of this game looks like.
Do you guys just toss a dart at a dartboard filled with ideas that some random people DMd you over the last 10 years and then start coding whatever the dart hits with no questions asked or thought put in to it?

It's no secret that you guys have very little interaction with the game itself. The way you play and the amount you play is minimal and creates a very clear gap of game knowledge and understanding of how things work. You guys admit this, we know this, it's common knowledge, you have families and lives, we get it. But you also made it clear that this feature took "a lot of coding."

So when you know that a new feature is going to take an excessive amount of work, even if you only come to that conclusion once you are knee-deep in it, how can you allow yourselves to continually stick to this militant development principle of zero communication? I ask this honestly and seriously. You could have dropped this idea on us at any time in the last 3 months and explained stuff like, "ok, we want this to be really fluid and automatic, we are thinking that things will stack automatically and subinventories will be onmouseover now, and this is the size of stacks we are thinking about, and the items we are considering." And I bet you that at least SOME of the things that have been made an obnoxious chore, or some of the things that stacks basically broke would have come up in feedback.

I am honestly curious what you guys thought. Did you think this was going to be a clean pump-and-dump update? Everything was going to go smoothly? Because this 3 month development journey just became what is sure to be many additional weeks, if not months of tweaking until everything is less obnoxious and runs smoothly (if you don't just bandaid it all with a toggle or literally ignore it).

I just seems so obvious that so, so, so many development issues, development flops, crashes after updates and updates that lead to weeks worth of tweaks could all be avoided with more communication. There has to be a breaking point, right? Is the bar really set this low for you guys as developers? Are you are honestly happy with this sort of "drop what we have so far and let the server crash and the players complain for 20 pages" development strategy? Do you not think that more communication could help?

Something has got to give here. Updates like this raise so many questions, and it seems like you guys genuinely have less time and drive to develop and clearly less time to bugtest or even think about what bugs might occur with a new implementation. It seems clear that there are easy options available that would make the development process potentially smoother going forward. People want to help, people don't want updates that destroy the game.

You can move forward with personal growth and honesty and the community will support you in it.

You don't have to be small little principled gnomes forever.

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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby Clemins » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:56 pm

ido wrote:1. Press Alt+0 to switch to Hotbar#0.
2. Add to hotbar every waterskin you have.
3. Place your waterskin to the inventory or to the belt. It doesn't matter where the waterskin is located, the only requirement it should be on hotbar.
4. Press Alt+1 to switch to your main hotbar.
5. From this moment you can forget about Hotbar#0 and drink water from all your waterskins using only one button with the new feature "Drink" at the main hotbar.


You forgot to mention, and please correct me if I'm wrong (not currently playing), that you have to have the adventure menu button on your hotbar as the drink key. When you're in combat that means numbers 1-5 are no longer hotbar keys. That leaves 6-0, sure, but in the scenario where you're focused on running towards or away from someone/animal and you have to drink almost constantly. Unless you have long ass goblin fingers, it's not really reasonable to press 6 to drink with your left hand all while using your other 4 fingers to press combat moves and dodges...

The key shouldn't be an action bar button/key and should instead just be a keybind you can change that is just baked in and NOT on the hotbar, such as the most common ` key most custom clients use.
Also, instead of requiring a waterskin/bottle/etc to be on the hotbar, why not just have the client recognize a container with water in it? Just have it check in the belt first, then have it check in your inventory.

ido wrote:Special thanks to the developers for this feature.

I'm grateful too, but let's not act like it's done...

And before someone takes the dumbass antagonistic role and pre-ejaculates out gAem gOoD, if you enjoy eating shit then by all means, eat up king. I hope nothing changes, I'd hate to take away your favorite kink.
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby sMartins » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:26 pm

You can also use A>R .... that we could also ask nicely to change to A>A and switch with REPAIR .... not a drama
I'd hardly call anything the Bible of our times » special thanks to MagicManICT
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby Clemins » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:25 pm

sMartins wrote:You can also use A>R .... that we could also ask nicely to change to A>A and switch with REPAIR .... not a drama


Okay lets forget the pvp aspect for a second and focus on running away from a boar and you don't have the drink key on your action bar.

Let me set up this scenario:

You're walking along picking blueberries and suddenly a boar aggros you. But, you happen to be in another submenu for crafting so what do you do? Press whatever key (backspace??) to go back in the submenus? Which hand do you use for that? If you use your left hand, you probably wont be dodging attacks if you aren't a 250 APM Starcraft player since you have to press 2-8 keys BEFORE you can start drinking. God forbid you press the wrong key and press something like repair and now you can't run because your cursor is a wrench and in panic you just keep clicking frantically despite not moving anywhere.

Alternately:

You get aggro'd by a boar and your stamina is low, you press ` and run away. Easy.
Literally all that could be solved by just using 1 button, whatever that button is.

I don't understand why some of you people want to get comfortable with the needless complexity, constructive critisim wont scare the devs away, you can do it, I believe in you!
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby sMartins » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:12 pm

I don't use back space .... But the "tilde" thing ... Pretty handy to me.

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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby leeharvy » Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:50 pm

i find it funny that i can put a mountain of rock in my inventory but a small amount of tea leaves over flows a cupboard :?
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby bumfrog » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:36 pm

Being able to toggle autostacking off is a great idea but until jorb and loftar get an angel investor to cover their living expenses while they create their masterpiece, they'll have to restrict themselves to short working schedules. Such is a fact of life. I'd love to live in a utopian society where we can all pursue our dreams*, but we don't, and our overlords demand of us a certain amount of labor a week to maintain sustenance and shelter. Everyone has to make their own decisions on how to best fulfill their lives. Sometimes that's making a grand work of art, other times that's having family or career.

I think that ideas should be in the realm of practical. I don't know how jorb and loftar's thoughts have changed over the years on working with a team on Haven, but it's always been "their project." It's not the first and not going to be the last indie game like this. I think ideas should respect such decisions--if there isn't a desire to expand the team, then ideas should reflect that value and be supportive of it.

I don't want to discourage anyone's ideas. Sometimes the greatest spark for inspiration can come from the strangest places. Some folks, me being one of them, holds themselves back for "what's practical." Others can aim for the stars and be happy when they just get ahead a few steps.



*not... this is what got us some of the worst societal systems. Capitalism, much like democracy, sucks for creating stable, peaceful societies, but there isn't a better system currently in existence that still allows the level of freedom to pursue one's dreams.
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby KaiserKek » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:31 am

Please make eggs stack. And crops while you're at it
I love this setting.
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Re: Game Development: Stack of Stacks

Postby loftar » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:23 pm

The server is now patched with a couple of small fixes:
  • There is a toggle for auto-stacking (under the Adventure->Toggles menu). It defaults to off, but saves its value per-character.
  • With an up-to-date client, container items (toolbelts/creels/&c) can now be toggled into and out of windows either by right-clicking them or by binding them to the hotbelt. That is, in addition to dragging them out of their frames.
  • Also fixed a bug where auto-stacking doesn't work properly in some situations.
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