Freedom to curse and to thief..but this?

[Vattic]

While I agree that the admins limiting peoples expression is not in fitting with the game and that the player who drew the swastika was not really being racist I do wonder what the official stance on racism (and similar) is both in the game and on the forum?

[StarChaser]

*reads this thread*

I think I just dropped a few IQ points. :\

[jorb]

While I agree that the admins limiting peoples expression is not in fitting with the game and that the player who drew the swastika was not really being racist I do wonder what the official stance on racism (and similar) is both in the game and on the forum?

Can y'all feel me, all ages and races
Real sweet faces
Every different nation, Spanish, Hatian, Indian,
Jamaican
Black, White, Cuban, and Asian
I only came for two days of playing
But everytime I come I always wind up stayin
This the type of town I could spend a few days in
Laketown the city that keeps the roof blazin

Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah
Laketown, uh, uh
Southbeach, bringin the heat, uh
Haha, can y'all feel that
Can y'all feel that
Jig it out, uh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUBB1lOLD6k

[Ferinex]

Can't beat sexy like that.

[provo]

Aside from the amateur forays into politics. This isn;t about what symbols are evil, and causes of Nazism. Its about social standards

Largely because we know what its is, we are all capable of working out what JTG was trying to say. The nazi symbol came with an FU and griefing. It quite clear he is not a Hindu or a native American, nor is he a political activist. This was him causing social discord. NOT A POLTICAL ACT

This is about social conventions, about what is socially appropriate. Religion politics and sex, are generally considered off limits in polite conversation. Talking about them is generally going to stir up trouble.

This dosn’t mean that people shouldn’t talk about them, but H&H is not a political journal and is not a thriving underground political current redefining meaning and political discourse. It a fucking game. And this was not an attempt at serious intellectual discourse.

However saying and doing inflammatory things, just too cause trouble is a social taboo, and it a matter of society to determine if they consider it an acceptable behaviour. And if not censure that person for breaking social taboo.

Consider
1: The player who starts masturbating in the middle of soccer/football game does not award a free kick to the opposition, he is rushed off the field and probably arrested. His actions are not about breaking the rules of the game but a wider issue of social standards (this particular social standard is set by law). Just because something can or isn’t covered by game rules, dosn’t mean that it is not wrong.

2. If someone is argumentative and offensive, you generally avoid them and exclude them from activities, because you don’t like them. Rightly so, no group is forced to include people they dislike. Just because they haven’t broken any rules, you are not obliged to include people who lack the social skills to participate in an orderly community.

3. A internet community dislikes trolling, although tolerated to some extent, at some point they have had enough. For the good of the internet community they remove the troll to ensure the community remains enjoyable for who is left. That the enforcement of some sort of social standards is about ensuring that the community remains cohesive, and isn’t smashed to bits by conflict.

What I believe this is about is that the “our” playing community in this game set standards of social behaviour, that do in fact have limits. Not because of the game, but because we all exist in a wider society and find some things offensive. Nazi symbols, trolling, whatever.

As a playing community i think the question that is being raised, what right should we as a internet community have in enforcing social standards. Because someone has rightly mentioned, that theft and greifing is one things, but this is one of the most extreme acts of creating social discord. What rights does this internet community have in setting standards of behviour?

[RiverPhoenix]

As a playing community i think the question that is being raised, what right should we as a internet community have in enforcing social standards. Because someone has rightly mentioned, that theft and greifing is one things, but this is one of the most extreme acts of creating social discord. What rights does this internet community have in setting standards of behviour?

And I would suggest that [if - edit] there isn't a response at some point, i.e. that no line will be drawn at anything, then this community will end as a backwater inhabited by trolls and griefers - those of us who like to create and think will simply up sticks and leave because (with all the best will in the world) there is only some much "free speech" (hate speech) that each person is willing to put up with - particularly if they see nothing done about it.

Just my tu'penny worth,

River

P.S. And I speak as one of those who has been spending their time fixing up the mess left behind - I play for the fun, not for cleaning graffiti written by infantile/extremist children (in thought if not age).

[sami1337]

I agree. Thanks for those 2 posts. I always suck at explaining things.

[jorb]

Because of JTG's behavior we've spent four or five dev sessions implementing tracking, village claims, drying frame destruction and black skills that make vandalism harder. Why on God's green earth would I want to ban JTG? He's one of the few players we have who actually try to break the game. Do you not see how JTG's behavior has improved the game? Do you not see that we've spent a lot of time implementing stuff to prevent JTG -- and, really, only him, since he's the only monster out there -- from spoiling your fun?

I have a very hard time swallowing accusations of passivity with regards to trolling and griefing. Do you see the game implementation issues that we have to consider? Do you know how hard it is to come up with good rules that allow for legitimate object/terrain/item interaction while punishing illegitimate instances of what is programatically the exact same thing? The game server does not have an intuitive grasp of morality, hard to believe though it might be.

And on the whole nazism thing -- censorship means closing your eyes to the real and material evil inherent in national socialism. It means limiting your own understanding of the mechanisms of mass action, mass psychosis, ideological subversion, group radicalization and group psychology, that totalitarian ideologies depend on. Moral panic is by definition not a reasonable response.

And, on another note, how safe do you *really* want to be? If you're looking for an angelically safe position in which no whim or wish of yours can get frustrated, you are playing the wrong game. It seems to me that every time we implement something that allows you better protection, you complain because your Achilles still has a heel.

I love having people here. I love the fact that some of you feel so strongly about this game. I understand that you're pissed off. I'm grateful. But I can't help but feel as if in the twilight zone when I've spent a year and a half on this game without anyone giving a shit about it, only to now have people tell me that I've done to little. Leave and come back in a year if you don't like it as it is now.

Alphaalphaalphaalpha. Workingonitworkingonitworkingonit.

Stay strong.

[jorb]

Sorry if I sound high and mighty. I don't mean to.

[StarChaser]

Speaking of dev sessions. How is the new transfer protocol going? Map tiles are still a bit hard to see ya know.
I promise if you fix it I will break the game more, honest.