Some thoughts on Player Count

General discussion and socializing.

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby MagicManICT » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:08 pm

It's not an assumption. It based off reading the forums regularly, and I'll agree it could be completely wrong as forum posting activity and such has to be taken into account. However, my logic goes like this. If players didn't like the game, they probably wouldn't come back when there was a world reset, no matter the hopes for what new there might be. Since players do come back world after world, and bring new friends each time, there is something here the players like. They then eventually quit logging in as frequently, and then not at all, leaving it down to the core players that really are in it for the long term, or rather I should say like the game for the long-term quality grind aspect.

I do agree people shouldn't be so quick to assume one view over another, but there are many of us still hanging out here on the forums have been around for more than a few worlds now. We've seen too many "got to go for now" or just comments as an aside as to why they haven't logged in for a while.

You do mention several other factors, and these factors can lead to just not logging in again (or at least until next world). A person doesn't get that daily reinforcement, and then realizes they just don't miss the state of the game they had reached as much as they thought they would, so what was going to be a short break to do X or Y becomes a soft quit. We could do a major write up on this aspect alone, and the AAA corporations have thrown good monies at studies on customer retention.

Player counts can be a nice metric to show the average number of players active in the world, but is horrible for showing deeper information. There's just too much one has to assume. (Best data would be from log in records and polling, but that's actual work.)

MightySheep wrote: if I downloaded some other game nowadays and it was like 10fps from the very start I'd uninstall that shit so fast.


Some of us recall a day when 10 fps was the best you got for a 3D game. Then again, a game was fairly playable at that frame rate back then. Now, with the games i've downloaded recently that run that slow, it's nearly upplayable due to severe input lag and other response issues if you drop below 15 fps. (If I paid, I get a refund for it.) At least most developers are good about putting a wide scale for graphics settings in. (I need a couple big upgrades to my mediocre system.)
Opinions expressed in this statement are the authors alone and in no way reflect on the game development values of the actual developers.
User avatar
MagicManICT
 
Posts: 18435
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:47 am

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby Redkat » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:17 pm

I know of a few that quit because they couldn't get the game to work at all. None of them IT-minded though. 1 was longtime player.

But also keep in mind that right now we are having exams at least in most of the countries I have heard of and December business overall possible - so some players probably have less time to play.
User avatar
Redkat
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:36 pm
Location: Sealand, Denmark

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby Kaios » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:26 pm

MightySheep wrote:I think a lot of older haven players are jaded to the terrible performance of haven


No way, I think everyone realizes how poorly the game runs even on a decent PC. It may just be that many of the older players simply have better computers now that don't have as much of an issue running the game but even then I personally still sometimes have problems with lag during those moments you described, such as standing at an area of the village with a whole lot of objects and animations.
User avatar
Kaios
 
Posts: 9171
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby Tamalak » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:34 pm

Game keeps losing players because:

1. Bad FPS performance
2. You have to be tech-minded to install.
3. Early game is inscrutable
4. Late game gets boring (q grind)
5. No advertising.

1-4 need to be fixed, then do a bit of 5. Jorftar don't seem to care that the pop is going down right now since they're still trying to get the game to a reasonable baseline before they do a player push.
Tamalak
 
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:31 am

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby venatorvenator » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:52 pm

ArvinJA wrote:
We're all going to die
The server is up
There are 180 hearthlings playing.

Dead game

And who would contradict such obvious implications?
Image
Indeed, the accompanying graph surely speaks for itself!
it doesn't take a degree in statistics to notice a downward trend in population

Smoking doesn't cause cancer
Sir R. A. Fisher (1890-1962) was one of the greatest statisticians of all time, perhaps most noted for the idea of analysis of variance. But he sullied his reputation by arguing strongly that smoking does not cause cancer. He had some sensible arguments. First, he rightfully pointed out our Warning Sign I7, correlation is not causation. He was clever at coming up with alternative scenarios: perhaps lung cancer causes an irritation that the patient can feel long before it can be diagnosed, such that the irritation is alleviated by smoking. Or perhaps there is some unknown common cause that leads to both cancer and a tendency to smoke. Fisher was also correct in pointing out Warning Sign D1, lack of randomized trials: we can't randomly separate children at birth and force one group to smoke and the other not to. (Although we can do that with animal studies.) But he was wrong to be so dismissive of reproducible studies, in humans and animals, that showed a strong correlation, with clear medical theories explaining why smoking could cause cancer, and no good theories explaining the correlation any other way. He was wrong not to see that he may have been influenced by his own fondness for smoking a pipe, or by his libertarian objections to any interference with personal liberties, or by his employ as a consultant for the tobacco industry. Fisher died in 1962 of colon cancer.

From Peter Norvig's essay "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation". So let's try to be as clever (and possibly as wrong) as Ronald Fisher.

What are we tracking, anyway?
The Player Count [PC] tracks how many unique IPs are logged into the game, at a specific point in time. It does not track how many people actively play the game. Most people seem to believe, though, that PC is a good indicator of how many people actually play the game, we should however, not be so hasty, and try to figure out some possible confounding factors.
A better indicator would be: "How many unique IPs logged in during week X?", only loftar knows the answer to that though, the haven statistics previously mentioned do not reveal this number.

Player Behavior
In legacy haven, the slider mechanic incentivized keeping characters logged in and idling for the first few days to get to full Change. That this inflated PC was obvious to most people. However, as this mechanic mostly inflated PC for the first few days of the world, it doesn't really apply to our situation. I believe there are more mechanics that inflated PC, although, they might not be as obvious.
  • Base building and industry, this is one activity that keeps players online in the start of the world, but tapers out over time.
  • Foraging, in legacy haven, one would need to constantly log on to forage to get some of the better curiosities, most agree that foraging has taken a backseat in the current version.
  • Looking for trouble/company, as the world is bigger than ever before, there is little incentive to go out and look around randomly, as encounters are much more rare in this world than in previous worlds.
  • Mapping, this one goes in both directions. Since the world is bigger there is more to map and explore, more far-flung resource nodes &c. However, a lot of people will find that knowing anything other than their immediate area, or even their base, is less important now than it used to be.
  • Farming/Mining, mining is obviously more important for curios now than before, I am unsure however, that it takes longer to mine enough for curios for one's character now than it previously did. When it comes to farming I'm unsure as to whether it is more important or less important than it used to be. It has for sure become more efficient than legacy for a lot of people, given the built-in automation (very similar to the old farming scripts).
  • Extreme grinding, since the hunger bar has come into play, starving oneself to eat an unlimited amount of food is no longer an option. High quality symbel increased the amount of food one can stuff one's characters with, but even so, the more extreme cases of grinding, and extreme amounts of farming it required has diminished.
  • Older player base, if the player base is mostly older (in terms of having played before) players coming back (assumption!), this would entail an older (in terms of age) player base, probably with less time to spend in the game than before

I'm sure there are many more behaviors that have changed, that affect PC in one way or the other. Now, some might say that some of these changed behaviors I list are actually "people being less active" (and for some of the points I would agree), but to me it seems that the game simply requires less time online, once the basics are up and running, than previously. This iteration of the game was designed to be more casual, of course that is bound to affect PC. I'd caution anyone to equate "less time spent online" with "player drop-off".

Oscillations: Fallout 4/Midterms/Finals
It's natural for a game to oscillate in activity due to real life factors, such oscillations can sometimes strengthen trends. For instance, if we expect a lot of people to spend time in the game to build their bases/industry for the first few weeks, and right after there's a temporary oscillation downwards, this can make it seem like a much stronger downward trend than it actually is. Even worse, since we're measuring PC the way we're measuring it, these oscillations might affect time spent in the game by a lot, which would affect PC, while the person who is, for instance, temporarily cramming for finals week, might still be as active as real life allow him/her.

P2P Time Economics
As the game has moved to a model where there are Free Accounts, Verified Accounts, and Subscribed Accounts, a lot of people are being a lot more economical with their time logged into the game than they would have otherwise been. This, quite obviously affects PC.

What other data do we have?
Older players will have some inkling about how many of their friends from previous worlds are actively playing, and can, with some effort, contrast that to the situation in previous worlds, and take into account that they probably have a larger network this world, than the previous. To me, from looking at this, it's not super obvious that this world would have a stronger downwards trend than previous worlds, but I do notice a slight trend, although, my anecdotal "data" is probably both 1) not representative, and 2) affected by various biases and flawed memories.

If loftar would be more forthcoming with actual numbers that would be appreciated.

Conclusion
It's easy to make quick comments and extrapolate from Player Count, but often, the extrapolations would only hold if PC is a good indicator of player drop-off or not, and we simply lack the data to say that it does or that it doesn't, and therefor the claim that the player base is shrinking is mostly based on anecdotal evidence and conjecture. Since we can't be sure if players are dropping off, or at what rate, we should also be careful with blaming certain game changes with the conjectured drop-off.


Geez it's not like there's a systematic effort to kill new players, drive them out of the game, and make fun of them on the forum because they don't yet know minimal details like palisade soak or how many coals go into a kiln, no sir that's just crazy.
Xcom wrote:Most good things last only a short time
venatorvenator
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:59 pm

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby _Gunnar » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:56 pm

It would be interesting to know how many subscribed accounts there are right now, as a better indicator, but obviously that probably shouldnt be made public.
Image
User avatar
_Gunnar
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:15 pm

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby borka » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:58 pm

venatorvenator wrote:Geez it's not like there's a systematic effort to kill new players, drive them out of the game, and make fun of them on the forum because they don't yet know minimal details like palisade soak or how many coals go into a kiln, no sir that's just crazy.


no sir that's just crazy:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=45829

@Gunnar
somewhere in the forums loftar named numbers
Last edited by borka on Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Avatar by SacreDoom
Java 8 - manually downloads - good to check for actual versions url here:
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40331
Remember what the dormouse said: Feed your head Feed your head
User avatar
borka
 
Posts: 9965
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:47 pm
Location: World of Sprucecap

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby ArvinJA » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:59 pm

_Gunnar wrote:It would be interesting to know how many subscribed accounts there are right now, as a better indicator, but obviously that probably shouldnt be made public.

What's your definition of "active"? Mine would be pretty close to "logged on in the past week" (for example, if you're spending a week cramming you might still log on to put on some long-term curios). That definition should make it easy for loftar to give us actual numbers.
The low life has lost its appeal
And I'm tired of walking these streets
To a room with its cupboards bare
User avatar
ArvinJA
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:02 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby shubla » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:05 pm

Arvin is a wise man.
Image
I'm not sure that I have a strong argument against sketch colors - Jorb, November 2019
http://i.imgur.com/CRrirds.png?1
Join the moderated unofficial discord for the game! https://discord.gg/2TAbGj2
Purus Pasta, The Best Client
User avatar
shubla
 
Posts: 13041
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Finland

Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby _Gunnar » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:05 pm

Well I wasnt particularly talking about active, the thing that would actually kill the game is if revenues drop too low.
I would say your definition of active is pretty good, though, although it can still have bias because you may spread out your characters over several accounts.
Image
User avatar
_Gunnar
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:15 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Inn of Brodgar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Amazon [Bot], BLEX [Bot], Claude [Bot] and 6 guests