How is the map generation going?

[bmjclark]

After you get ~2 supergrids from the middle grid (the world is roughly 35x35 super grids) you'll never see a soul out there. There are more than enough supergrids for every single person playing the game actively to own their own supergrid. There's enough supergrids for every single person online right now to have ~30 (that's bigger than world 6 for reference) to themselves. In a game where much of the content comes from other players and interacting with them (not necessarily just killing them mind you), the world is far too big. Past worlds had conflicts, this world has been monotonous because of it's size and lack of fast travel.

Very glad to see it getting smaller next world, i think the old world's sizes were perfect.

[jordancoles]

hey loftar, answer us you coward!

I'm sure you can see that, even in the event that we were planning to reset the map tomorrow, I couldn't very well let a word slip to suggest such a thing. Even mentioning that I was so much as looking at the mapgen code would probably make people flip out.

I'm excited to see the new map, it might make travel more interesting

Also I miss backpack canoes from Salem already

[smileyguy4you]

After you get ~2 supergrids from the middle grid (the world is roughly 35x35 super grids) you'll never see a soul out there. There are more than enough supergrids for every single person playing the game actively to own their own supergrid. There's enough supergrids for every single person online right now to have ~30 (that's bigger than world 6 for reference) to themselves. In a game where much of the content comes from other players and interacting with them (not necessarily just killing them mind you), the world is far too big. Past worlds had conflicts, this world has been monotonous because of it's size and lack of fast travel.

Very glad to see it getting smaller next world, i think the old world's sizes were perfect.

This is from someone who wants raiding and pvp on a daily basis.

Sorry but I disagree, I traveled and traded with many villages 3-4 hours in range from my own and set up plans to build an underground walled road to and from one another (and was in the process of that, and was why I asked for option to have wagons + animals underground).

For people who want the ability to fight when necessary but are not yearning for raids to destroy all their work, this size is great, the possibility for raiders is always there and could happen, but the constant threat of players on a daily basis is what killed haven for most small groups trying to make a village because they would inevitably get rolled by one of the huge player villages or a group of murder alts.

Raiding became a last resort if politics failed this world whereas in past worlds raiding was the status quo and almost every small sized village got raided and lost all their work usually to the people who actively defend things like this on the forums or their compatriots, the same people that bloat their characters and/or the number of alts/bots they use.

There needs to be a balance and this world allowed for a better balance than in the past, players that wanted the same wanton destruction could stay near the center and the players that didn't could move further out and could build (or not) relationships with near (1-4 hours away) villages.

Again, the pvpers and people that reside in the larger groups that build their own "bot" clients to overpower any smaller group of people playing the game in earnest are the ones cheering a smaller map on the forums.

There is a reason why the central grid got boring for all the people that raid and kill all the time, because the people that dont enjoy that now had the option to walk away from it and play a game where politics, trading and fights/wars with other villages were possible and the only people left to raid and kill were each other. Whereas in the past their only option was to stop playing the game.

I had multiple people who were planning on joining our village stop playing because of the mass murdering and destruction going on in the first couple of weeks of game-play. The inability to easily get away from it was the major problem, once the party arrows were put in place and even further along the charter stones, they had washed their hands of the game. This is why you see such small number in the game, not because the map is too big, its because all the players that wanted something more than murder and raiding constantly got killed and left the game at the beginning, proving the flaw in a smaller map.

Comparing this to old worlds, saying no to a "trade" usually meant you would be raided in the next day to week (or killed instantly), in the current world saying no is less likely to lead to imminent raiding, instead maybe more bartering or going separate ways, with the occasional fight/raid.

If the world is given more time, raiders and traders could build fast travel networks above or under ground, this world was up less than half a year, given more time, a lot of that could have been established with work from villages/players and I believe that long term development of the world is necessary for the longevity of the game play that this game deserves and will eventually require when worlds are reset less often (if ever *one can hope*).

On top of that if rivers are more connected next world, the map size will feel even smaller.

[Alvar]

Anyway, now that the cat is out of the proverbial bag, here is a little sample of how the generated river systems currently look, scaled out to a level of 5 tiles/pixel.

My main source of doubt right now as that there may be a case to be made to try and avoid "islands" a bit more. I could perhaps do this by trying to detect river loops and avoid generating them. It could also possibly be done by generating more fords (there are actually quite many fords as it is; it's just a bit difficult to see at the 5 t/p scale). It may also be completely unnecessary and that it's fine as it is. Not entirely sure.

What are those pink spots on the image? Are they weirdly colored stone patches or something else?

Also would it be possible to generate certain parts of the map differently from the rest by tweaking some parameters of generation algorithm? For example, have certain supergrid be structured like archipelago by increasing number/width of rivers there, or somesuch effects. Limiting those tweaks to certain number of localized areas allow you to avoid most of the concerns about players spawning in the unfortunate location, while letting you get some feed back how different mapstyles are perceived gameplay-wise. It may also give some incentives to people exploring the map which uniformly-generated map may lack.

Will cave lakes return?

That is the intention. I haven't added them yet, though.

Is there a chance to have caves, halls, lakes etc being generated on levels past first one? What is the point or reason in having other cave levels being solid earth?

[Granger]

Anyway, now that the cat is out of the proverbial bag, here is a little sample of how the generated river systems currently look, scaled out to a level of 5 tiles/pixel.

My main source of doubt right now as that there may be a case to be made to try and avoid "islands" a bit more. I could perhaps do this by trying to detect river loops and avoid generating them. It could also possibly be done by generating more fords (there are actually quite many fords as it is; it's just a bit difficult to see at the 5 t/p scale). It may also be completely unnecessary and that it's fine as it is. Not entirely sure.

What are those pink spots on the image? Are they weirdly colored stone patches or something else?

My guess from their looks: mudflat.

Map looks interesting, but rivers seem to be a bit leaning toward going 45°. Maybe let them meander a bit more instead of being that straight?

Also would it be possible to generate certain parts of the map differently from the rest by tweaking some parameters of generation algorithm? For example, have certain supergrid be structured like archipelago by increasing number/width of rivers there, or somesuch effects. Limiting those tweaks to certain number of localized areas allow you to avoid most of the concerns about players spawning in the unfortunate location, while letting you get some feed back how different mapstyles are perceived gameplay-wise. It may also give some incentives to people exploring the map which uniformly-generated map may lack.

Could be fun.

Will cave lakes return?

That is the intention. I haven't added them yet, though.

Is there a chance to have caves, halls, lakes etc being generated on levels past first one? What is the point or reason in having other cave levels being solid earth?

Good point, would be nice if lower levels would also contain stuff to find.
Would also be cool if from time to time there would be a natural minehole inside a cave, leading down (graphics could be that the ground lowers around one of the existing cave entrances)...

[smileyguy4you]

I agree I would love to see fissures open up to hidden chambers or areas ala underground springs, or even crevices or "cave entrances" to lower levels with some sort of natural cave system as well. Maybe more creatures as you get deeper too, not just trolls spawning from tiles, but if there were natural cave systems that were discover-able at deeper levels, mobs/gatherables not found on the levels above it as well. I know that's a lot of development but having the map gen in place to make natural caves lower than lvl 1 would leave it open to be developed later. Improvements to the cave and underground levels would be fantastic. I loved the addition of bats to caves and now want more! lol

[simimi]

With the new river system you could easely spawn on an island no ?

[jordancoles]

Hey Loftar, would it be possible to get some more enclosed ponds of water that aren't on mountains and super uneven terrains?

[loftar]

Map looks interesting, but rivers seem to be a bit leaning toward going 45°. Maybe let them meander a bit more instead of being that straight?

Yeah, I know; I'm honestly not sure why they do that. I only use a Euclidean metric to guide them, so I don't really understand why they seem to prefer directions dictated by the coordinate axes. I'll continue investigating and see if I can find the cause of it, but I don't think it's a deal-breaker, especially as their preference for those directions isn't really that strong.

Also would it be possible to generate certain parts of the map differently from the rest by tweaking some parameters of generation algorithm?

I've strongly considered such things, and I hold the ambition, but I don't think it's going to be a thing for this particular iteration of the mapgen. Not that I might not run some experiments on it and see if I manage to get something good out of it, but it's not in the concrete plans.

Hey Loftar, would it be possible to get some more enclosed ponds of water that aren't on mountains and super uneven terrains?

By "enclosed ponds", do you simply refer to small lakes? In that case, I hadn't really though of it, but it might not be a bad idea. I'll consider it.

[Redlaw]

Suddenly as this possable update comes I am reading an old 3rd edition forgotten realms book... The Underdark... Thinking if I can work out things to suggest from it that would make Spelunking into the dark depths much more um fun. If not deadly.