Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby simimi » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:38 am

Kittysong wrote:i get that the game is in an alpha like state but when issues such like this is addressed with a mere shrug it doesn't
inspire great hope in the player base. The game itself is good but i feel the devs have a lot to learn about managing.
Seen too many Indie alphas i supported go under due to bad management. Reality always hits the laid back devs the hardest.
It's a whole new ball game when asking for money equal to professional games on the market.

You see it as bad management but if its bad management for the player base, it may not be bad management for the game.
It often seems that devs dont give a fuck about there customers, but try to see the big picture.

We all agree that the base of H&H is very good, this game could be huge like Eve Online.
But there is 400 people online, so if you were dev, what would you do ?
Strugle to keep those people ? or testing everything you can to see were the game could go if you make big changes here and there ?
IMO the base of the game is good, and if it dont have the succes he deserve, then something is wrong.
I dont know what, neither the devs ( well, I guess they have more clues than me ), so its time to take risks, wether planed or arriving from bugs and parentheses mistaques.
Refusing evolution is the worst option, so I think they are right to welcome any experiments.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:41 am

Kittysong wrote: My concern was the lackluster response to the community's concerns it show lack of planning and management.


What was lackluster about it? Sure, they admit to a failure to plan, and anyone who's been around has known about some of the management decisions and designs have been... less than ideal. It's a couple of guys building a game from nothing (and for nothing until August) out of their home. If you want to get EA level customer service, look to EA published games. Then again, they probably have the crappiest CS team in the business over time, only to be bested recently by Ubisoft. Jorb and loftar have always been very prompt in responding to customer service issues from my experience, and I've been "working with" them for close to four years now.

I really don't know what more you want out of them. Just remember what the public starts thinking when devs start making promises and airing wishful thinking that they can't deliver on. (If you don't know what I'm referring to, look up Peter Molyneux and pretty much anything he's made since the last Populous games.)

Kittysong wrote:also the whole "failure to heed such warnings really is on the individual's shoulders" is like saying "your fault in investing in this" not the best way of wording things when looking for investors.


Legally, when you invest in stocks, you're told exactly this because, at least in the US, the law requires the investment firms to tell you that stocks fail in tremendous and spectacular ways, and they succeed in such ways, too. Does it stop people investing? No. Why should I or anyone else telling you that this game is in alpha and that the player is ultimately responsible for the commitment of their time (and any fees submitted to play the game) bad wording? You are ultimately responsible for any decisions you make. unless you can prove the devs are doing something illegal, you probably don't have much recourse other than to quit playing.

I'm not saying to quit playing, but if the persistence of your characters or time invested into the game or some "ideal" homogeneity of the game world is necessary to your subscription, you will be disappointed at some point in the future.

Kaios wrote:
MagicManICT wrote:It's not like people weren't walking around with q200 bone saws to make boards in a q90 kiln before at two months in.


So you want to go back to that then? The pace was slow, for sure, it needed an increase but not to this extent. I mined after they nerfed the extreme high quality to their adjusted formula and it seemed just right to me, which would have been perfect in combination with the other changes.

Come on man we didn't go with a roll back because of all the people against it but as you can see...

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure. Given the qualities I've heard of from bears, I don't want to think what the trolls will look like. However, this isn't a game breaking development, and should be treated as such. I can understand being concerned, but the level of drama warrants a 5-7 at most, not an 8-10 I've been reading.

Kaios wrote:
uncleseano wrote:What was the big issue with the patch?


...most of them don't even understand what's going on.


Maybe someone can explain it properly?

@Pricing: We all see millions of people people drop $60 for a game they won't even get 20-30 hours of play time out of. How much have you already played this with all the bugs and other issues?
Opinions expressed in this statement are the authors alone and in no way reflect on the game development values of the actual developers.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby nuker22110 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:42 am

simimi wrote:
Kittysong wrote:i get that the game is in an alpha like state but when issues such like this is addressed with a mere shrug it doesn't
inspire great hope in the player base. The game itself is good but i feel the devs have a lot to learn about managing.
Seen too many Indie alphas i supported go under due to bad management. Reality always hits the laid back devs the hardest.
It's a whole new ball game when asking for money equal to professional games on the market.

You see it as bad management but if its bad management for the player base, it may not be bad management for the game.
It often seems that devs dont give a fuck about there customers, but try to see the big picture.

We all agree that the base of H&H is very good, this game could be huge like Eve Online.
But there is 400 people online, so if you were dev, what would you do ?
Strugle to keep those people ? or testing everything you can to see were the game could go if you make big changes here and there ?
IMO the base of the game is good, and if it dont have the succes he deserve, then something is wrong.
I dont know what, neither the devs ( well, I guess they have more clues than me ), so its time to take risks, wether planed or arriving from bugs and parentheses mistaques.
Refusing evolution is the worst option, so I think they are right to welcome any experiments.


which was what another player suggested, let people into the dev server and mess around, test new things before implementing changes. EVE online has a similar system. so yeah.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby simimi » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:46 am

If you want to grind without trouble, you can stay in legacy, its open : this is the test server.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:52 am

nuker22110 wrote:. EVE online has a similar system. so yeah.


Every major MMO has a similar system. However, it isn't the dev servers. it's always a separate shard set up for the latest ready-to-release patch before going live. And I'll note EVE has several layers of testing other than Singularity. I'll also note that these only work because they can get a few hundred to few thousand players committing time to them. What's Haven got for players right now? A few thousand total?

I'll note that this has been asked about from JoLo multiple times. I'd like to see it, but it has always been a free game so more servers others can log into were another expense they probably couldn't afford.

And I'll note, having mod status here doesn't mean we're the voice of the devs. We're players just like you, but with the responsibility of making the forums don't turn into utter crap.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby Tonkyhonk » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:53 am

nuker22110 wrote:let people into the dev server and mess around, test new things before implementing changes.

they tried it before w5 (and probably before that too) for curio system testing and then someone slipped his tongue and others (especially russian community) raged so hard at this. for salem, paradox asked devs to pick certain numbers of testers, someone again slipped his tongue, and then paradox picked up certain numbers from paradox accounts and started official closed beta, and then pyramid scheme (*pukes*). can you imagine how others raged?
i think this gave devs a good enough reason why they decided to make hafen open to everyone from the very start and only jorb and loftar test run on their test server.

simimi wrote:If you want to grind without trouble, you can stay in legacy, its open : this is the test server.

this.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby RedKGB » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:19 am

Perfection is the enemy of business. Perfection is the enemy of development. Perfection is the enemy of everything. A person will never have the perfect wife, husband, kids, job, money, food, and so on.
The devs done the best they can with what they have. They can learn and fix and move forward.
overtyped wrote:I didnt know you were more stubborn than me, but I guess you are. You are more willing to talk in a endless circle of already answered arguments than I will ever be. Good day to you.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby Kittysong » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:23 am

Upon review of my past few posts (and realizations that i'm having random bouts of unwarranted agitation)
i find that my view is currently skewed by the fact that I picked up aspects of the devs that reminded me of others devs
not associated with this game who used their player base faith in them to scam them. And my current state lead me to
see mountain is the place of anthills. tho i still have concerns i will wait for this week to pass before i assess them.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby Jackwolf » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:17 am

Kittysong wrote: tho i still have concerns i will wait for this week to pass before i assess them.


Rational. Beautiful.
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Re: Discussion with J&L about how long the world will last

Postby Kittysong » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:15 am

Jackwolf wrote:
Kittysong wrote: tho i still have concerns i will wait for this week to pass before i assess them.


Rational. Beautiful.


lol i just admitted to being irrational, but at least i caught myself by the end of the day.
My fault really, too many skipped meals and not enough sleep the past two weeks.
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