Some thoughts on Player Count

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Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby ArvinJA » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:02 pm

We're all going to die
The server is up
There are 180 hearthlings playing.

Dead game

And who would contradict such obvious implications?
Image
Indeed, the accompanying graph surely speaks for itself!
it doesn't take a degree in statistics to notice a downward trend in population

Smoking doesn't cause cancer
Sir R. A. Fisher (1890-1962) was one of the greatest statisticians of all time, perhaps most noted for the idea of analysis of variance. But he sullied his reputation by arguing strongly that smoking does not cause cancer. He had some sensible arguments. First, he rightfully pointed out our Warning Sign I7, correlation is not causation. He was clever at coming up with alternative scenarios: perhaps lung cancer causes an irritation that the patient can feel long before it can be diagnosed, such that the irritation is alleviated by smoking. Or perhaps there is some unknown common cause that leads to both cancer and a tendency to smoke. Fisher was also correct in pointing out Warning Sign D1, lack of randomized trials: we can't randomly separate children at birth and force one group to smoke and the other not to. (Although we can do that with animal studies.) But he was wrong to be so dismissive of reproducible studies, in humans and animals, that showed a strong correlation, with clear medical theories explaining why smoking could cause cancer, and no good theories explaining the correlation any other way. He was wrong not to see that he may have been influenced by his own fondness for smoking a pipe, or by his libertarian objections to any interference with personal liberties, or by his employ as a consultant for the tobacco industry. Fisher died in 1962 of colon cancer.

From Peter Norvig's essay "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation". So let's try to be as clever (and possibly as wrong) as Ronald Fisher.

What are we tracking, anyway?
The Player Count [PC] tracks how many unique IPs are logged into the game, at a specific point in time. It does not track how many people actively play the game. Most people seem to believe, though, that PC is a good indicator of how many people actually play the game, we should however, not be so hasty, and try to figure out some possible confounding factors.
A better indicator would be: "How many unique IPs logged in during week X?", only loftar knows the answer to that though, the haven statistics previously mentioned do not reveal this number.

Player Behavior
In legacy haven, the slider mechanic incentivized keeping characters logged in and idling for the first few days to get to full Change. That this inflated PC was obvious to most people. However, as this mechanic mostly inflated PC for the first few days of the world, it doesn't really apply to our situation. I believe there are more mechanics that inflated PC, although, they might not be as obvious.
  • Base building and industry, this is one activity that keeps players online in the start of the world, but tapers out over time.
  • Foraging, in legacy haven, one would need to constantly log on to forage to get some of the better curiosities, most agree that foraging has taken a backseat in the current version.
  • Looking for trouble/company, as the world is bigger than ever before, there is little incentive to go out and look around randomly, as encounters are much more rare in this world than in previous worlds.
  • Mapping, this one goes in both directions. Since the world is bigger there is more to map and explore, more far-flung resource nodes &c. However, a lot of people will find that knowing anything other than their immediate area, or even their base, is less important now than it used to be.
  • Farming/Mining, mining is obviously more important for curios now than before, I am unsure however, that it takes longer to mine enough for curios for one's character now than it previously did. When it comes to farming I'm unsure as to whether it is more important or less important than it used to be. It has for sure become more efficient than legacy for a lot of people, given the built-in automation (very similar to the old farming scripts).
  • Extreme grinding, since the hunger bar has come into play, starving oneself to eat an unlimited amount of food is no longer an option. High quality symbel increased the amount of food one can stuff one's characters with, but even so, the more extreme cases of grinding, and extreme amounts of farming it required has diminished.
  • Older player base, if the player base is mostly older (in terms of having played before) players coming back (assumption!), this would entail an older (in terms of age) player base, probably with less time to spend in the game than before

I'm sure there are many more behaviors that have changed, that affect PC in one way or the other. Now, some might say that some of these changed behaviors I list are actually "people being less active" (and for some of the points I would agree), but to me it seems that the game simply requires less time online, once the basics are up and running, than previously. This iteration of the game was designed to be more casual, of course that is bound to affect PC. I'd caution anyone to equate "less time spent online" with "player drop-off".

Oscillations: Fallout 4/Midterms/Finals
It's natural for a game to oscillate in activity due to real life factors, such oscillations can sometimes strengthen trends. For instance, if we expect a lot of people to spend time in the game to build their bases/industry for the first few weeks, and right after there's a temporary oscillation downwards, this can make it seem like a much stronger downward trend than it actually is. Even worse, since we're measuring PC the way we're measuring it, these oscillations might affect time spent in the game by a lot, which would affect PC, while the person who is, for instance, temporarily cramming for finals week, might still be as active as real life allow him/her.

P2P Time Economics
As the game has moved to a model where there are Free Accounts, Verified Accounts, and Subscribed Accounts, a lot of people are being a lot more economical with their time logged into the game than they would have otherwise been. This, quite obviously affects PC.

What other data do we have?
Older players will have some inkling about how many of their friends from previous worlds are actively playing, and can, with some effort, contrast that to the situation in previous worlds, and take into account that they probably have a larger network this world, than the previous. To me, from looking at this, it's not super obvious that this world would have a stronger downwards trend than previous worlds, but I do notice a slight trend, although, my anecdotal "data" is probably both 1) not representative, and 2) affected by various biases and flawed memories.

If loftar would be more forthcoming with actual numbers that would be appreciated.

Conclusion
It's easy to make quick comments and extrapolate from Player Count, but often, the extrapolations would only hold if PC is a good indicator of player drop-off or not, and we simply lack the data to say that it does or that it doesn't, and therefor the claim that the player base is shrinking is mostly based on anecdotal evidence and conjecture. Since we can't be sure if players are dropping off, or at what rate, we should also be careful with blaming certain game changes with the conjectured drop-off.
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby MagicManICT » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:18 pm

Nice analysis and an interesting read. I'm just seeing the same trend that we see every world, though. I think we can sum it up to the same factors: people enjoy the early to mid parts of the game, but the long-term quality grind feels too much like work or is flat out boring. If how people are following announcements and updates are any factor, though, anything that may keep someone's interest long term might make a huge difference in player retention over time.
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby Sleep » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:20 pm

Wow, what a great post!
But no, the game is dying in terms of playerbase and this isn't anything new. This happens all the time after a certain amount of time has passed after a new world was launched.
also add shit performance to your line of issues
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby ArvinJA » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:23 pm

MagicManICT wrote:I'm just seeing the same trend that we see every world, though.

Hm, the post was mostly made to make people less quick to assume that they actually know that players are dropping off (when we don't have the relevant data). But sure, I can see why one would believe that that is the case, and sure PC may well be strongly correlated with how many people still play the game, and as long as people realize that that's based on subjective belief, (for now, until we get some real numbers) that is fine by me. :)
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby jordancoles » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:28 pm

Good post, I wish we still had long connecting rivers like in the old version

The game is too spread out with too much nothing in between
At least semi-afk boating was more relaxing than running on foot where 80% of the terrain types drain your stamina
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby MightySheep » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:36 pm

ArvinJA wrote:
MagicManICT wrote:I'm just seeing the same trend that we see every world, though.

Hm, the post was mostly made to make people less quick to assume that they actually know that players are dropping off (when we don't have the relevant data).

This graph is nice but I think player count drop is obvious even without it, I regularly look at "players online" home page and the number gets lower on a daily basis.

I wouldnt say it is just same old world start curve, you'd have to show me the old graphs for me to agree with that, it seems a lot more drastic this time probably due to the p2p system. I'm pretty sure in old worlds the curve rounds off after while, this is more like free fall, I'm still seeing less players each week.
Last edited by MightySheep on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby Avu » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:37 pm

Nice post but I'll give it to the naysayers for whatever reasons the game is dying. My limited but not that limited sample is telling me many many people have quit not to be replaced by anyone.
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby sabinati » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:41 pm

MightySheep wrote:
ArvinJA wrote:
MagicManICT wrote:I'm just seeing the same trend that we see every world, though.

Hm, the post was mostly made to make people less quick to assume that they actually know that players are dropping off (when we don't have the relevant data).

This graph is nice but I think player count drop is obvious even without it, I regularly look at "players online" home page and the number gets lower on a daily basis.

I wouldnt say it is just same old world start curve, you'd have to show me the old graphs for me to agree with that, it seems a lot more drastic this time probably due to the p2p system. I'm pretty sure in old worlds the curve rounds off after while, this is more like free fall, I'm still seeing less players each week.


where do you think the graph data comes from...?
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby ArvinJA » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:53 pm

Sleep wrote:also add shit performance to your line of issues

I'm unsure whether that causes people to play less, or simply, not play at all, but sure, there are probably some that find that X amount of hours of playing with shit performance is acceptable, but that any amount beyond that would not be worth it due to decreasing marginal utility (satiation).

Anyway, generally, if we have 1000 active players in game A, and 1000 in game B, if B is more casual than A, PC should be lower for B at any given point in time. That's kind of what I am trying to hammer home. Low PC might be a feature, and not a bug, given a set number of active players.
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Re: Some thoughts on Player Count

Postby MightySheep » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:57 pm

I think a lot of older haven players are jaded to the terrible performance of haven but sleep is so right, if I downloaded some other game nowadays and it was like 10fps from the very start I'd uninstall that shit so fast. This game really does have some major fps issues, I know its not just me, standing in middle of developed village is almost unplayable and my pc isnt even that bad.

I spend like 90% of my time in cave or afk in cellar because of it.
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