Why w11 is bad

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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby Oddity » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:32 pm

DamJNeT wrote:Combat is still overcomplicated for beginners, complicated for people mildly interested in it, and apparently trivial for the rest. Reading the forum, it seems only a few moves are considered OP and used. I don't understand why it is like this.

Funny how they're on like the 12th iteration of the combat system, but every single combat system they've invented has the exact same problems. Despite re-inventing combat at least once per year, nothing ever really changes between systems.

bitza wrote:One thing I always loved about haven was how you can learn so many things about social dynamics, psychology and the human condition that apply to real life.

That's why Haven was so great 8-)
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby Granger » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:01 am

Oddity wrote:
bitza wrote:One thing I always loved about haven was how you can learn so many things about social dynamics, psychology and the human condition that apply to real life.

That's why Haven was so great 8-)

Wrong tense.

Has the game really changed in that regard (which I don't think) or is it past tense for you because you have already learned everything you could?
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby bmjclark » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:42 pm

Granger wrote:
Oddity wrote:
bitza wrote:One thing I always loved about haven was how you can learn so many things about social dynamics, psychology and the human condition that apply to real life.

That's why Haven was so great 8-)

Wrong tense.

Has the game really changed in that regard (which I don't think) or is it past tense for you because you have already learned everything you could?


Pretty obviously player interactions are at an all time low. If you need some proof, there hasn't even been a post in the moot in a month. Legacy was full of back and forths between factions, and just generally more in game drama. This game feels like a single player game.
Cajoes wrote:I was the murder victim your guy aggro'd. And slew. Entirely unprovoked. Rather handily at that. Which prompted the retaliatory party. That you also handily slew.
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby popfor » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:57 pm

bmjclark wrote:Pretty obviously player interactions are at an all time low. If you need some proof, there hasn't even been a post in the moot in a month. Legacy was full of back and forths between factions, and just generally more in game drama. This game feels like a single player game.

And I firmly believe this is why the game has so little player retention, it has become less realistic player-interaction wise, less travel availability, lack of balance in combat between high and low level characters (movement camemberts), and has developed into more of a system. Allowing people to shitpost/banter on the forums, enabling idiots the ability to betray/sneak into villages, allowing tryhards to hand bash wooden walls, and snipe characters afking behind walls, while annoying, raise tension, establish priority, and gives a sense of what you're doing actually matters. I mean what the fuck was that automatic archery tower and claim defense bullshit? People don't even have to patrol their wall anymore because you get alerts? Ill admit I haven't been playing to that depth in the game anytime recently but jesus christ just look at it, whats fun about that? Haven has lost its golden charm of being risky and is turning into every other survival base building themed mmo out there (farmville).
That being said haven kept me going through a large portion of my life and I want to stick by it and watch it grow. Great game. So it goes how it goes I suppose.
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby Aceb » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:22 pm

This is going to be a long post so bare with me. I wanted just to throw perhaps a meaningful coin.

Is W11 bad? No. It's good as any world that wasn't W8. I love how quickly people forgot how they (almost) call each world bad then it expands onto next world so last one is suddenly "it was good". or maybe something is in here jorbtar? (i doubt but a seed of sand maybe)

Beginning of World
It is always a slaughterfest. A lot of newbies dying to factions who conquer territory and best nodes (which is completely normal).
In a week, factions are already able to get 200-300q hides (if believing some HH people, even 400q hides and bones), they are close to be established or established enough and slaughterfest ends.

A lot of noobs struggles here because of hunger bonus and no usage of alts. Terraforming takes huge tool on playerbase. I would recommend to do a tweak or two to leveling tool as well as add a fluid cointainer that will contain 1L to 5L of water so it's not a nightmare to pick-drink-drop water bucket. yes, You could say leather liquid containers exist but those takes almost a day to make and there's a chance You might have a poor supply of those. OR MAYBE JUST A SHOVEL TOOL BUFF / Stamina from water regen buff while hardworking and not running?

Questing was broken. I laughed when jorb said that there's mechanic that cover questgivers over oceans or something like that and You shouldn't get a questgiver on another continent. I laughed when 3 out of my 4 characters got most quest over oceans.
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That's it. I do not cover issues here because there are more related to lack of knowledge than rather time consuming. I believe metal rush was stopped because there was no coal on level1 and people had to wait for tar. I actually like that. I have no idea if it's only this world or previous ones too
Important note: min. 5% travel weariness from using a road and porting back to hf in initial value made a lot of noobs go away as a lot of player cease to use roads. after build first road to acre clay, my group was already tired of this thing and we ceased to use any roads. it was not worth it. Fix came too late to stop some part of player base to go away. Let's not forget bees sheningans too.
also people yelling bots.

Factions arise
After factions built up and stopped attacking their neighbours to keep some population for realms, they started to ride other continents / fight each other. Half of population of my island stopped playing (or moved far away) when AD / pirates / HH took their bronze swords because some factions apparenetly didn't share gear and 10q bronze swords were a cool treasure. A lot of people couldn't afford / lost a knarr to that as well so they lost travel option or had to be all the time at alert due to so many sharks swimming around. (as well as whales on top of that). Local trade was going good until factions got into them. It was broken. Locality no more existed. One person bought for tokens a tool and it spread as infection into others. Local trade in reality existed only for factions. (I buy tools for tokens, I reproduce not same quality but still better tool than others, I will collect their pearls / floatsams / tokens and circle restart. It's not locality. Factions had no problem to go on multi client or something when it was about tokens. locality will only exist if world is too big to travel during 1 game sessions [so somewhere of 20 hours]. First cases of "blueberry in your eyes" cries appears. As well as green man and several other voices giving retarted ideas of "if you have to travel so much maybe move".

So another problem, sailing for hours. Literal hours. Ard client made it somewhat bareable later on due to movement queueing. Still, if You do not play on multiclient, You are stuck with boredom and alt tabing. I'm sure that what jorbo team wanted. Definnitely. Yup. More player base quits.

First markets appear. Some small trade happens. Locality is still dead but forum cries try to prove otherwise. WE. DO NOT. SPEAK. ABOUT. HERMITS \ SMALL VILLAGES. TRADING. SMALL. STUFF. BETWEEN. EACH. OTHERS.

Factions fight for meteors. 9 Mineholes start appearing. Some voices yells that jorbo team went too far with difficulty vs reward on depper levels. I'm still thinking that meteor to built something so important is required. Maybe as it was optional material that allows You to skip other requirements or something...
People demands more meteor-events but also make them more relevant / not broken at same time. Now people laugh at meteor (again). As HH stopped fighting for it because there was really no point getting 3rd minehole or they really lost due to quality difference of metal usage from this case I do not know. Two sides, two different stories actually i lied, there's two sides but a lot more stories.

In conclusion, biggest part of split/player base cry in terms of travel, blueberry in your eyes know as trade issues and well, some fixes came but too late. Most of player base already quit (which might shock You, but it as well took some bigger players out!!)
also people yelling bots.

Current flow
Almost one faction with allies stayed alive. Rest seems unrelevant or are sleeping agents. Most of player base quit. Bigger players keep quitting. A lot of remaining players are playing casually. Some sold accounts. Custom client maker quits. People have enough. Seems seasons are big yay for hermits, big nay for factions / people expecting deeper changes. Ard client is soon to be broken, so more players will quit. There's a rise in communist camp which says "DURING LEGACY TIMES, EVERYTHING WAS BETTER". also people still cry about boting.

also people yells bots.
Universals
Food rework. It even creates bigger gap than there was in W10. W10 allowed You to catch up. People cried your could buy your way, completely ignoring You could also work for it yourself and that wasn't even that hard. It still isn't but this time You are additionally capped by time gates of satiations. Also, cheese botting industry got another life here I guess. This is also strongly tied to combat.
Combat. No, I don't want to shit on jorbtar here. Best idea seems to create artifical legacy system or there's no better ideas yet.
Siege which is tied to combat. People shit because they don't understand this is thin ice between 'too easy" and "impossible". Or they straight want it to be one or another. Shields as no shields have both lovers and haters (Tho shields had more lovers I think...)
Forum fight between people who believe and people who play and the second know the difference the first just believe they are right but have no knowledge.
Travel still sucks but at least it got a lot better. In terms of jumping at least. Oceans are still boring but now, takes a bit less at least.
Salt water introduced and this is what pains a lot of people. Introducing stuff that has no usage or usage is so marginal that people literally use "delete" fuction of ard client. That is a very bad design.
Playerbase during W10 and W11, despite jorb being recognizable by playerbase as face of haven, got so much bad RP and gets so shitted on because of "sprucecap" issue as well as other small things and loftar getting as well a lot of shit on... which might shock You, but loftar is actually more considered a face of haven than jorb even was now. (despite client rewrite sheningans).
Fucking gardening change. Sorry but You deserved all the shit and even after You reverted, the bad feeling continued because people saw You did it because of riot and some more disliked how You avoided / had no answers to me / other as what dictated changes so... fruitless talking not counting revert.
also people yells bots and forgot that bots give You a handicap but it isn't impossible to be a very close to bots, regardless.

In conclusion: a lot of people enjoy both loftar and jorb work but those who want meaningful job done, will keep shitting until they are satisfacted. Especially shitting on jorb, as it seems lately and imho, partially deserved but overshitting anyway.

This is half of what I wanted to say. A lot anyway I still have in my pocket, but hey. Naive effort.

and w10 was best world, can't say W7 because I never got a chance to go as far as I did in haven2
A quest for a hat. - W10
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby AntiBlitz » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:55 pm

just wanna mention that i think oceans are fucking great, they just need content in them to be something.
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby bmjclark » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:34 pm

I think as much as travel might be an issue its secondary to the biggest issue which is the progression. A few groups have come out so far ahead on stats and quality that they pretty much have made any efforts by smaller groups useless. One of the things about old haven was that quality and stats didn't matter -that- much. They mattered, but not nearly as much as now. In w6 there was some massive uprising lead by kaizokoroof (im positive i spelled your name wrong) half way through the world that shit on Dis for a brief time. There is absolutely no way that anyone is going to cause issues to AD or Hedgehugs this late in the world and it's only been 5 months. The progression systems are shitty, and they've only gotten shittier with every step the game has taken away from legacies systems. Being able to spiral everything is bad design with serious endgame consequences. Being able to dump dozens of heart containers into one character and bring him up to 1500+ hp is a dangerous road to go down when pvp revolves around chip damage for the most part.
Cajoes wrote:I was the murder victim your guy aggro'd. And slew. Entirely unprovoked. Rather handily at that. Which prompted the retaliatory party. That you also handily slew.
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby jorb » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:42 pm

bmjclark wrote:The progression systems are shitty, and they've only gotten shittier with every step the game has taken away from legacies systems. Being able to spiral everything is bad design with serious endgame consequences. Being able to dump dozens of heart containers into one character and bring him up to 1500+ hp is a dangerous road to go down when pvp revolves around chip damage for the most part.


Fair point. The design problem is coming up with meaningful rewards worth striving for.
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:44 pm

bmjclark wrote:heart containers into one character and bring him up to 1500+ hp


*laughs 2-3 months in the past*
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Re: Why w11 is bad

Postby bmjclark » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:11 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:
bmjclark wrote:heart containers into one character and bring him up to 1500+ hp


*laughs 2-3 months in the past*


I don't even want to know what people are at now tbh :lol: . The point definitely stands though. They're a fun reward when you get 1 or 2 of them from clearing some dungeons, they're downright broken when you start buying them from other players or funneling them to one guy.

jorb wrote:Fair point. The design problem is coming up with meaningful rewards worth striving for.


I definitely get that. I don't really envy your position here. Don't want you thinking im shitting on the game for the sake of it, I legit want it to be good.

I think qualities need to be more grounded than they are now. I'd argue that mulch, bone clay, and digging deeper should all go just so that at least quality is grounded by the base resources (and also, so that they matter somewhat again). If it were me, i'd have made heart containers just give a point or 2 of const depending on size. And honestly, i'd nerf spiraling metal somehow or maybe make the anvil/hammer matter less in the end result of crafting things. People who are more industrious than me can comment on these more.

I think legacies combat had a lot to do with why stats didn't feel so broken. It didn't matter who you were, if you got stabbed with no defense, you were dead. Obviously higher stats made it harder to get to that point, but at least it always felt possible if you had lower stats than someone.
Cajoes wrote:I was the murder victim your guy aggro'd. And slew. Entirely unprovoked. Rather handily at that. Which prompted the retaliatory party. That you also handily slew.
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