Vatas' quote

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Vatas' quote

Postby GenghisKhan44 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Vatas' signature, ex Karl Marx wrote:“Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity.”


I used to think this was a parody, the sort of saying you'd hear from Groucho Marx when quoting the old German agitator.
But after reading it I suppose for the hundredth time, I see that, while it may have been said with the same jocularity I detect in it, he meant it seriously. And it is a serious and understandable concern of his, even to the 19th century man.

For those who don't know what it means, it basically is saying that, if you thoroughly teach someone how to do something, they will probably do it for themselves and therefore become self-sufficient and need no business.
This makes sense, as the society envisioned by Marxism must necessarily be entirely self-sufficient; in order to be successful and sustainable, it must have skilled people who can do everything a society needs to exist: not only soldiers, welders, and carpenters, but also bakers, launderers, customer servants and propagandists.

However, the irony is that no one man can be fully self-sufficient. If you teach a man to fish, he might choose to become a fisherman. But then he does not also have time to become a seamster to sew his own clothes, a carpenter to build and maintain his own house, a miner and smelter to make his own pots and pans, much less his own computer, AND a cook to make crab cakes when he's done all the rest.

TIME is one of the factors that makes commerce happen naturally. Because men have many needs, they must learn many skills. This takes time, and in the meantime your needs are still not being met. Common sense would seem to say, if many people live together, far better for each man to focus on one task so everyone can come together and in some way divide the fruits of our labour. And this naturally happens through commerce.

If you teach a man to fish, he might not choose to fish for himself. Or he might choose to fish under your leadership. Or too many men may learn to fish and you wouldn't have enough seamstresses or bakers or lawyers. Or, more likely today, teach too many people that a degree in grievance studies will get you a job, and you have too many people complaining about how bad the world is, and not enough practical people to do anything about it.

Ah. Then the socialist state, rather ironically, sweeps in and makes a business proposal with its constituents: you vote for us, and we will give you everything. Free healthcare. Free education. Free for everyone, even people from the world over. Never mind we can't afford it. We will find a way through your obvious goodwill proved by your bitching about rich, white, cisgendered men.

What Marx wants, if he's honest with himself, is a society where commerce is fair, honest, and where no one is left behind. He believes he can achieve it if no one is considered better or more prestigious than another; he wishes to humble all so they may all be exalted materially. But this simply is diametrically opposed to how human nature works, as it currently stands. Putting us in a different social situation - by removing kings and replacing them with democracies - has not really improved the situation. Marxist states returned to an oligarchy or a monarchy, and for the worse; they never could reach a classless society, ironically because it would have put politburos out of a job.

If a perfect human society is possible, it is not for very long nor with a very large number of people. The closest I've come to seeing it is in the company of friends, or at perhaps one Thanksgiving dinner, where we are content to serve each other because it is for their leisure and it is not a big bother. But in the unimportant matter of living, people pay me to serve people they haven't time to serve. People tip me for food they did not have time to pick up, much less make. And I buy games I haven't the time to learn to make myself. And while I sometimes get stiffed, or my boss does not always get useful labour out of me, or I don't always get everything I wanted in the computer, overall, I think specialisation the the resulting commerce is a good start. When it is reinforced with honour and honesty and hard work, all of which must come voluntarily, or else by the grace of God, you really have a good society or at least a good worker.

I will close with a quote I think it reasonable to attribute to Vladimir Lenin, who said it on his deathbed:

“To save our Russia, what we needed (but it is too late now) was ten Francises of Assisi. Ten Francises of Assisi, and we should have saved Russia.”


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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby vatas » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:50 pm

I don't remember the thought process I had when I decided to add the quote to my signature. Maybe to create some sort of irony when I answer questions in "How do I?" -section for no compensation. (Other than to increase my post count.)

The political and economical ramifications of the idea are, in my opinion, just about what you just explained. The very basis of civilization is division of labor and commerce, money, even capitalism, facilitates this.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby shubla » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 pm

Individualism (and thus selfishness) has caused many problems.

Not all cultures and societies in earth are as tainted as america and other western world countries.
There are still few countries where "virtue" in form of collectivism and respect exists among people. (although probably not for long...)

I think that "perfect" human society certainly is possible. But not only with government. But also with culture.
Many people often do not think about culture at all when they think of "perfect" human society. But only about form of government, model of economy etc-

Think of a culture where it
wouldn't be shameful to work in low income job, because even those jobs would be considered important for the society.
there wouldn't be a lot of crime, because people would respect rules and each other.
and so on
Form of government wouldn't be that important.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby sMartins » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:59 pm

"That which is truly disconcerting is not that the world transforms itself into a total dominion of technique.
Far more disconcerting is that man is not at all prepared for
this radical alteration of the world.
Far more disconcerting is that we are still not capable of
reaching, by means of a pondered thought, a proper comparison with that which is truly emerging in our era".

M. Heidegger, Gelassenheit(1959)


MAN IN THE AGE OF TECHNICS

EDIT:

GenghisKhan44 wrote:Make men virtuous again. By the grace of God, make men virtuous again.


"Calling/praying/invoking for virtuous or God doesn't work anymore, we are being virtuous already, ask around, it never went better".

Our body can feel there's something wrong but not our mind (from which illness,etc..).
An employer that works 8 hours a day is virtuous by the actual means, even if he's working 8 hours a day to destroy the earth.
Usually his virtus degree is based on the money he gets and the women he has around.
In our era being virtuous means efficiency = maximum results with minimum effort ( it doesn't care if you have to sacrifice 3 babies and 7 virgins )
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby Jalpha » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:23 pm

shubla wrote:Think of a culture where it
wouldn't be shameful to work in low income job, because even those jobs would be considered important for the society.
there wouldn't be a lot of crime, because people would respect rules and each other.
and so on
Form of government wouldn't be that important.


So to paraphrase; narcissism is the problem.

Bit of a conundrum then that narcissism is encouraged and fuelled by capitalism. Troubles won't truly begin until even more people follow sociopathology with their narcissistic life philosophies. Chances are the world will burn. Nihilism is sprouting from the corpse of this godless society. What can anyone do about it.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby NeoBasilisk » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:37 pm

Jalpha wrote:Nihilism is sprouting from the corpse of this godless society. What can anyone do about it.

It is a difficult question, and one that I struggle with personally. "The old gods are dead." So what is the answer we are given? "Find your own meaning." And what if I find no meaning in anything? So I do what I can to enjoy myself while working a job. For a lot of people, the answer is to have kids. But it seems to me that that is merely forcing the answer upon yourself. You created a new life, and now you are responsible for raising that life. But that life will grow up and someday face the exact same questions that you faced. Someday they will grow old and die just like you did before them. I suppose the only lasting legacy would be in the situation where some future generation achieves true biological immortality. Then at least through your participation in civilization, you helped humanity eventually arrive at that point. But that is little comfort for anyone alive right now.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby vatas » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:59 pm

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby MagicManICT » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:09 am

I've thought on "what's the point" for a while. Once you remove religious meanings, there really isn't much point. Life is, as a physics lesson, just another form of entropy. The question has to become: "what do you do with what you've received?" A better way to look at it, in my opinion: do we evolve, and potentially push our own evolution in a direction we think we want to go, or do we just let ourselves stagnate?

As far as the quote above, was it Marx? I see a lot of references to Marx for it around the web, but no actual source material that it came from. No dates of conversations, etc etc. (Same can be said for many of the Marx quotes I've seen floated around.)

Another point about Marx, Marxism, and the resulting interpretations of his work have been written about recently. There's a pretty good article in The New Yorker by Louis Menand, dated 10/3/2016. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016 ... -and-today pointing towards a couple of recent books on Marx (from within a few years of the time of the article).

It’s true that Marx was highly doctrinaire, something that did not wear well with his compatriots in the nineteenth century, and that certainly does not wear well today, after the experience of the regimes conceived in his name. It therefore sounds perverse to say that Marx’s philosophy was dedicated to human freedom. But it was. Marx was an Enlightenment thinker: he wanted a world that is rational and transparent, and in which human beings have been liberated from the control of external forces.

This was the essence of Marx’s Hegelianism. Hegel argued that history was the progress of humanity toward true freedom, by which he meant self-mastery and self-understanding, seeing the world without illusions—illusions that we ourselves have created. The Young Hegelians’ controversial example of this was the Christian God. (This is what Feuerbach wrote about.) We created God, and then pretended that God created us. We hypostatized our own concept and turned it into something “out there” whose commandments (which we made up) we struggle to understand and obey. We are supplicants to our own fiction.


I generally have to agree with the article. Communism really is about what the hippies tried to do with it--groups of friends and like-minded individuals working together to do what is needed; towns like Oneida (yes, the silversmith company) that were successful communist communties for many, many decades. The ideal still exists in various parts of the world. The problem is that it runs in to blunt human nature: greed and selfishness. Lenin and others' interpretations of Marx were either out and out wrong or cherry picking certain parts to suit their own political agenda.

GenghisKhan44 wrote:Ah. Then the socialist state, rather ironically, sweeps in and makes a business proposal with its constituents: you vote for us, and we will give you everything. Free healthcare. Free education. Free for everyone, even people from the world over. Never mind we can't afford it. We will find a way through your obvious goodwill proved by your bitching about rich, white, cisgendered men.

This is a bit (more than a bit) of a pessimistic and nihilistic way of looking at it... Also, other than some slogans thrown around about education, nobody is saying "free anything" unless you're a part of that extremely poor portion of the population that needs a hand up--better education, better health care, etc. (I'll note that "free college" has been a frequent catch phrase around Sander's campaigns for US President in '16 and now for '20.) That reminds more of what I'd hear free market conservatives chirp in the early 80s, or at least the mocking of politics revolving around it. To quote Dylan (sarcastically): "the times they are a changin'"
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby Jalpha » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:52 am

The only first world nation I can think of which is too poor to afford free healthcare and education which is at least asubsidised would be the USA.

Which makes me question just exactly why "the greatest nation or earth" (note my sarcasm) cannot afford these basics.

It might have something to do with the way the USA waited until the last moment before picking a side in WWII. Ensuring they had military superiority afterward. If the Russians had not broken the back of the nazi regime there is no doubt in my mind that the USA would have fought on the side of Germany.

Just take an objective look at their society for yourself.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby mvgulik » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:25 am

The general euphemisme "the streets are paved with opportunities for success"
Effectively also blames those that are not successful (usually by the standard set by those that are successful) ... as lazy and that they can only blame them self for there misfortune.
Now who in his right mind would like to support lazy people ... or dissidents, or extremists, or terrorists, or Fake news reporters for that matter.
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