Vatas' quote

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby GenghisKhan44 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:32 am

Jalpha wrote:I believe very much in a flawed creator God. Which implies that I judge God (just as God supposedly judges us). If there were nobody to judge God then God could be perfect, according to personal, arbitrary ideals.

However flaws are totally arbitrary. Things just are what they are. To imply flaws implies judgement based upon personal ideals.


If flaws are arbitrary, and you judge God, and you judge him to be flawed, then do you not mean that you have a meaningless opinion about God, that is, by your reading, just as meaningless as Him saying He is perfect?
Your theory that subjects have a right to judge, therefore any subject can judge another with equal authority to any other subject is very Protestant. I mean this as a description, not an insult. Protestants believe very much the same thing about each others' judgements; the phrase "only God can judge me" comes to mind. Except you have correctly identified the "God" of your judgement only to be yourself. So you at least live in reality in that you attribute your own judgements to yourself; you do not believe the foolish notion of private interpretation to be infallible.

Well, neither do I.

It is my opinion that God is maturing as we do and as our species as a whole has been doing. Made in his image may be a deeper philosophical rabbit hole than any theologian would have you believe.

The god you believe in is more like Zeus or the Mormon conception of Elohim. Perhaps such an arbitrary demiurge exists as that, but it is different in kind and quality from the God Aquinas and Aristotle described, and the one the Jews worshipped. "I AM" is not merely a name. It's a description. "Ipsum esse subsistens."

I do not read theologians as much as I ought, but I assure you, they think far deeper than you or I know. Though I certainly can imagine. John Paul II once said that the marital relationship - father, mother, and child - reflects the eternal relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This gives me many questions, which I will not address here. I am curious how he answered them, if only to himself. I can think of answers.
"...the dungeon and shackles are already at my threshold to show me here and now my eternal disgrace. Only you can work the miracle to make life possible for a soul so imperiled by doubt, O Atoner for all, exalted beyond saying." - St. Gregory of Narek, Book of Lamentations, Prayer 1.

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby Jalpha » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 am

Not without meaning. Without value except to the individual. I may say God is flawed according to my understanding. God may claim perfection according to his. From my perspective God is flawed. My perspective has limits. Take from that what you will.

I also prefer to form my own concept of what God is. All branches of christianity seem corrupt and broken, from my perspective. Though it seems that the aspect of God the christians worship is God as he would be at the end of the universe. Enlightened and fulfilled, having gone through the whole of time and learning everything there is to know.

I also believe that there is a place where non-linear time exists where everything nearby is made from energy and not matter. The God you seem to worship could exist in that place.

But we are very far away from such a place and I suspect that here even God must adhere to his own rules and submit to the limitations imposed by time.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby sMartins » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:21 pm

You both know very well what's our sin here, pride! Even if it's perpetrated by love!
Or do you still think that our language is flawless? answer that you dull!

We Have To Stop! Stop talking about God, religions and most of all Christianity, now!!! There's no place for them, not anymore. I'm asking for it in the name of love.
I stop now!
I'm Marco, the Godless. What are your names?

Edit:

Or, have you already read that book I suggested? Read it, comprehend it, and then lets talk about that if you dare talking to me.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby sMartins » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:43 pm

63. Converation With the Kings
1.
ERE Zarathustra had been an hour on his way in the mountains and forests, he saw all at once a strange procession. Right on
the path which he was about to descend came two kings walking, bedecked with crowns and purple girdles, and variegated like
flamingoes: they drove before them a laden ass. "What do these kings want in my domain?" said Zarathustra in astonishment to
his heart, and hid himself hastily behind a thicket. When however the kings approached to him, he said half-aloud, like one
speaking only to himself: "Strange! Strange! How does this harmonize? Two kings do I see- and only one ass!"
Then the two kings made a halt; they smiled and looked towards the spot whence the voice proceeded, and afterwards looked
into each other's faces. "Such things do we also think among ourselves," said the king on the right, "but we do not utter them."
The king on the left, however, shrugged his shoulders and answered: "That may perhaps be a goat-herd. Or an hermit who has
lived too long among rocks and trees. For no society at all spoils also good manners."
"Good manners?" replied angrily and bitterly the other king: "what then do we run out of the way of? Is it not 'good manners'? Our
'good society'?
Better, verily, to live among hermits and goat-herds, than with our gilded, false, over-rouged rabble- though it call itself 'good
society.'
-Though it call itself 'nobility.' But there all is false and foul, above all the blood- thanks to old evil diseases and worse curers.
The best and dearest to me at present is still a sound peasant, coarse, artful, obstinate and enduring: that is at present the
noblest type.
The peasant is at present the best; and the peasant type should be master! But it is the kingdom of the rabble- I no longer allow
anything to be imposed upon me. The rabble, however- that means, hodgepodge.
Rabble-hodgepodge: therein is everything mixed with everything, saint and swindler, gentleman and Jew, and every beast out of
Noah's ark.
Good manners! Everything is false and foul with us. No one knows any longer how to reverence: it is that precisely that we run
away from. They are fulsome obtrusive dogs; they gild palm-leaves.
This loathing chokes me, that we kings ourselves have become false, draped and disguised with the old faded pomp of our
ancestors, show-pieces for the stupidest, the craftiest, and whosoever at present trafficks for power.
We are not the first men- and have nevertheless to stand for them: of this imposture have we at last become weary and
disgusted.
From the rabble have we gone out of the way, from all those bawlers and scribe-blowflies, from the trader-stench, the ambitionfidgeting, the bad breath-: fie, to live among the rabble;
-Fie, to stand for the first men among the rabble! Ah, loathing! Loathing! Loathing! What does it now matter about us kings!"-
"Thine old sickness seizes you," said here the king on the left, "thy loathing seizes you, my poor brother. You know, however, that
some one hears us."
Immediately then, Zarathustra, who had opened ears and eyes to this talk, rose from his hiding-place, advanced towards the
kings, and thus began:
"He who hearkens to you, he who gladly hearkens to you, is called Zarathustra.
I am Zarathustra who once said: 'What does it now matter about kings!' Forgive me; I rejoiced when you said to each other: 'What
does it matter about us kings!'
Here, however, is my domain and jurisdiction: what may you be seeking in my domain? Perhaps, however, you have found on
your way what I seek: namely, the higher man."
When the kings heard this, they beat upon their breasts and said with one voice: "We are recognized!
With the sword of your utterance severest you the thickest darkness of our hearts. You have discovered our distress; for behold,
we are on our way to find the higher man-
-The man that is higher than we, although we are kings. To him do we convey this ass. For the highest man shall also be the
highest lord on earth.
There is no sorer misfortune in all human destiny, than when the mighty of the earth are not also the first men. Then everything
becomes false and distorted and monstrous.
And when they are even the last men, and more beast than man, then rises and rises the rabble in honor, and at last says even
the rabble-virtue: 'Lo, I alone am virtue!'"-
What have I just heard? answered Zarathustra. What wisdom in kings! I am enchanted, and verily, I have already promptings to
make a rhyme thereon:-
-Even if it should happen to be a rhyme not suited for every one's ears. I unlearned long ago to have consideration for long ears.
Well then! Well now!
(Here, however, it happened that the ass also found utterance: it said distinctly and with malevolence, Y-E-A.)
'Twas once- methinks year one of our blessed Lord,-
Drunk without wine, the Sybil thus deplored:-
"How ill things go!
Decline! Decline! Ne'er sank the world so low!
Rome now has turned harlot and harlot-stew,
Rome's Caesar a beast, and God- has turned Jew!

2.
With those rhymes of Zarathustra the kings were delighted; the king on the right, however, said: "O Zarathustra, how well it was
that we set out to see you!
For your enemies showed us your likeness in their mirror: there looked you with the grimace of a devil, and sneeringly: so that we
were afraid of you.
But what good did it do! Always did you prick us anew in heart and ear with your sayings. Then did we say at last: What does it
matter how he look!
We must hear him; him who teaches: 'You shall love peace as a means to new wars, and the short peace more than the long!'
No one ever spoke such warlike words: 'What is good? To be brave is good. It is the good war that hallows every cause.'
O Zarathustra, our fathers' blood stirred in our veins at such words: it was like the voice of spring to old wine-casks.
When the swords ran among one another like red-spotted serpents, then did our fathers become fond of life; the sun of every
peace seemed to them languid and lukewarm, the long peace, however, made them ashamed.
How they sighed, our fathers, when they saw on the wall brightly furbished, dried-up swords! Like those they thirsted for war. For
a sword thirsts to drink blood, and sparkles with desire."- -
-When the kings thus discoursed and talked eagerly of the happiness of their fathers, there came upon Zarathustra no little desire
to mock at their eagerness: for evidently they were very peaceable kings whom he saw before him, kings with old and refined
features. But he restrained himself. "Well!" said he, "there leads the way, there lies the cave of Zarathustra; and this day is to
have a long evening! At present, however, a cry of distress calls me hastily away from you.
It will honor my cave if kings want to sit and wait in it: but, to be sure, you will have to wait long!
Well! What of that! Where does one at present learn better to wait than at courts? And the whole virtue of kings that has
remained to them- is it not called to-day: Ability to wait?"
Thus spoke Zarathustra.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby GenghisKhan44 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:06 am

sMartins wrote:You both know very well what's our sin here, pride! Even if it's perpetrated by love!


If it is pride, it is not my own. Perhaps it is the pride of the God who has spoken to me, and whom you may hear, too, if you wish.
Or do you still think that our language is flawless? answer that you dull!


I do not. But if God wishes, He may speak through my imperfect words.

We Have To Stop! Stop talking about God, religions and most of all Christianity, now!!! There's no place for them, not anymore. I'm asking for it in the name of love.
I stop now!


No. Love died for you on the Cross. He will not cease to be heard of. If you stop your ears you may hear no more of this Christ. But you will also no longer hear what is good in Nietzsche, if there be anything good, a matter of agnosticism to me.

You will not stop the Love of Christ in me.

I'm Marco, the Godless. What are your names?


Patrick Jeremiah Martin. Baptised in the first two, confirmed in the third.

Edit:

Or, have you already read that book I suggested? Read it, comprehend it, and then lets talk about that if you dare talking to me.


I read the section you posted. I grasp some of its principles, but not all. It is... interesting, but lacks a coherence by itself. I would need more information to evaluate it.
"...the dungeon and shackles are already at my threshold to show me here and now my eternal disgrace. Only you can work the miracle to make life possible for a soul so imperiled by doubt, O Atoner for all, exalted beyond saying." - St. Gregory of Narek, Book of Lamentations, Prayer 1.

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby GenghisKhan44 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:12 am

Jalpha wrote:Not without meaning. Without value except to the individual. I may say God is flawed according to my understanding. God may claim perfection according to his. From my perspective God is flawed. My perspective has limits.


I understand you. Again, it is private interpretation taken to its logical conclusion. Perspective, not objective fact, is the arbiter of right and wrong. If, say, God made you against your own free will, he's not right because He has an idea in mind for your life you may come to like if you went with it. He has wronged you by bringing you, someone who can hardly wrap his mind around his own existence, into existence without your consent, and subjecting you to the forces of a cruel and barbaric world which you don't want to have to endure. And so your indignation at him is righteous because you suffer for his experiments.

Most Christian apologists try to argue, well, we do know a lot about why we exist. The world isn't really so cruel. Your suffering could be turned to joy, if you'd just let him. They are right, but they fail to see your point. But I see it. You are a subject asked to use your reason by God. And you are under the understanding that reason should be used, not to make sense of the world around you and conform yourself to it. Rather, you feel reason was made to take goodness, as you understand it or have been taught to by public schools or even just by being out in the world, and conform an unjust and unfair world to your understanding of goodness.

Would you say I am getting you rightly, as it comes to free will, reason, right judgement, morality, etc?

I also prefer to form my own concept of what God is. All branches of christianity seem corrupt and broken, from my perspective.


Naturally, as my perspective comes not from myself, nor from the Enlightenment, but from the successors of the Apostles, who themselves learned from Jesus, and saw Him risen from the dead, I disagree. But I don't come from their angle because I lack grudges or grievances against God and the Church.

Though it seems that the aspect of God the christians worship is God as he would be at the end of the universe. Enlightened and fulfilled, having gone through the whole of time and learning everything there is to know. I also believe that there is a place where non-linear time exists where everything nearby is made from energy and not matter. The God you seem to worship could exist in that place. But we are very far away from such a place and I suspect that here even God must adhere to his own rules and submit to the limitations imposed by time.


You are closer to the truth in describing God this way.

But do you really think time is the default, and that the Present is not? I can understand a normal man on the street believing so. You seemed to have thought more about this than that.

Where do you think non-linear time would exist? I would think of non-linear time - in the sense of the Eternal Present upon which time plays out, a little like a table upon which a music box winds down - contains time and space, for this reason: time and space are finite. Space grows and shrinks; it is coming into existence from materially nowhere. We have seen, in fact, "virtual" quantum particles come from a vacuum. But ex nihilo nihil fit. Nothing comes from nothing. So I think we have scientific evidence that the visible universe - time and space as we know them - are only the surface layer of reality.

Beyond a point science has nothing to say to account for certain things. One of these is how things in general exist. Since science works within time and space, naturally it has nothing to say about something which has no beginning or end as we know it, nor that is immeasurable with either the largest or smallest measurement. But all natural things, about which science can speak, are not only finite but contingent. Yet only a non-contingent, infinite cause is sufficient to explain how things exist generally.

This is different from the God you understand, I'm afraid. Though, if it is any comfort, deism, while rational, is not at all a full-blooded acceptance of Jewish and Christian tradition. It is just seeing that an infinite must needs exist to explain the rest of things, that's all.
"...the dungeon and shackles are already at my threshold to show me here and now my eternal disgrace. Only you can work the miracle to make life possible for a soul so imperiled by doubt, O Atoner for all, exalted beyond saying." - St. Gregory of Narek, Book of Lamentations, Prayer 1.

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby sMartins » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:57 pm

YOU DULL!!! I TOLD YOU GOD IS DEAD!
And if He's dead now it means once he was living among us!
GOD IS DEAD CAUSE HIS COMPASSION TOWARD MEN
Last edited by sMartins on Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby Cajoes » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:12 pm

A Intellectual wrote:The ritual of the Holy Communion is eating the flesh and blood of Christ. Therefore Christianity is a death cult.


... Are we being punked?
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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby GenghisKhan44 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm

Cajoes wrote:
Jalpha wrote:The ritual of the Holy Communion is eating the flesh and blood of Christ. Therefore Christianity is a death cult.


... Are we being punked?


The living flesh and blood.

You will note Jesus is still very much alive when he says "take and eat; this is My Body, which will be given up for you" and "take and drink; this is My Blood, of the new and everlasting testament, shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins". He does not say it as He is dying on the Cross, though in His Words He certainly identifies it with the sacrifice He is, was, and will be making. And if He rose from the dead, it certainly is not dead flesh He is giving.

As a side note, not a proof so much as something that intrigues me, in those Eucharistic miracles where the Bread manifests as the Flesh it is, it is bleeding and living, not dead and decaying.
Also a note, Orthodox believe in Eucharistic miracles, too. An Orthodox related how, and I checked it myself, there is in a liturgical manual a section dealing with Eucharistic miracles. They say it is a punishment from God for unbelief. I would say a loving rebuke.
"...the dungeon and shackles are already at my threshold to show me here and now my eternal disgrace. Only you can work the miracle to make life possible for a soul so imperiled by doubt, O Atoner for all, exalted beyond saying." - St. Gregory of Narek, Book of Lamentations, Prayer 1.

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Re: Vatas' quote

Postby sMartins » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:37 pm

9. The Preachers of Death

THERE are preachers of death: and the earth is full of those to whom renunciation of life must be preached.
The earth is full of the superfluous; life is marred by the all-too-many. May they be tempted out of this life by the "life eternal"!
"The yellow ones": so are called the preachers of death, or "the black ones." But I will show them to you in still other colors.
There are the terrible ones who carry about in themselves the beast of prey, and have no choice except lusts or self-laceration.
And even their lusts are self-laceration.
They have not yet become men, those terrible ones: may they preach renunciation of life, and pass away themselves!
There are the spiritually consumptive ones: hardly are they born when they begin to die, and long for doctrines of weariness and
renunciation.
They would rather be dead, and we should welcome their wish! Let us beware of awakening those dead ones, and of damaging
those living coffins!
They meet an invalid, or an old man, or a corpse- and immediately they say: "Life is refuted!"
But only they are refuted, and their eye, which sees only one facet of existence.
Shrouded in thick melancholy, and eager for the little casualties that bring death: thus do they wait, and clench their teeth.
Or else, they grasp at sweetmeats while mocking their childishness: they cling to their straw of life, and mock at their clinging.
Their wisdom speaks thus: "He who remains alive is a fool; but we are all such fools! And that is the most foolish thing in life!"
"Life is only suffering": say others, and do not lie. Then see to it that you cease! See to it that the life which is only suffering
ceases!
And let this be the teaching of your virtue: "Thou shalt kill thyself! thou shalt steal away from thy life!"-
"Lust is sin,"- so say some who preach death- "let us go apart and beget no children!"
"Giving birth is troublesome,"- say others- "why still give birth? One bears only unfortunates!" And they also are preachers of
death.
"Pity is necessary,"- so says a third party. "Take what I have! Take what I am! So much less does life bind me!"
If they were overflowing with pity, they would make their neighbors sick of life. To be evil- that would be their true goodness.
But they want to be rid of life; what do they care if they bind others tighter with their chains and gifts!-
And you also, to whom life is unending work and dissatisfaction, are you not very tired of life? Are you not very ripe for the
sermon of death?
All you to whom unending work is dear, and all that is quick, new, and strange- you endure yourselves badly; your diligence is
escape, and the will to forget yourself.
If you believed more in life, then would you fling yourselves less to the moment. But you do not have enough capacity for waitingor even for idling!
Everywhere resounds the voices of those who preach death; and the earth is full of those to whom death must be preached.
Or "life eternal"; it is all the same to me- if only they pass away quickly!-
Thus spoke Zarathustra.
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