Vatas' quote

[MagicManICT]

And you're right, only time will tell us the importance of that book, and no book can be called like that while we are living the change .... but trust me, listen to the messenger or at the absolute mad man, that's how we would call him these days.

I like to think of a passage from the Gospel of Thomas: Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." --http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

You have to delete "he wrote" and your sentence is perfect. "I'd hardly call anything the Bible of our times".

Touche!

[Jalpha]

things that have been declared heretical by the Catholic church

Wonder why. $

[GenghisKhan44]

Trees are genetic machines unwinding from their genetics. To an extent so are we and the bird. The difference between the bird and us is less tangible. I suppose I cannot claim that the bird lacks free will at all times. I suppose neither can I claim that the bird has no soul. Are you an animal operating on instinct or a rational entity capable of reasoning and changing your behaviour?

Free will is complex however to claim that we are always mindless automatons operating at the level of a tree or hurricane is stupid.

The only clear thing these observations tell me is that all animals have instincts, and that you are not sure whether animals, including men, ever or never act from reason or will.
So it seems entirely possible, in your world, that the way man acts is simply an instinct. You say that equating man's behaviour with the behaviour of the air or of plants is stupid. I don't think you grasp how right you are; human beings are remarkably stupid. If I and the vast majority of people are any example to you, at least in believing in a God whom you, smart as you are, reject because He doesn't actually exist. If that doesn't do it for you, consider how much time we waste, say, fighting wars over matters which will be forgotten by the time we die, anyway, even if of old age. Consider what any given government is doing, rather than what they ought to be doing. People are stupid.

Perhaps we are just one more broken toy in the universe that's just going berserk? Like tornadoes, like epidemics, like global warming or freezing through the past 4 billion years, black holes, red giants gobbling up planets... maybe our stupid behaviour is just another fluke?

I don't think you know how rightly you say:

God is not punishing us. We are punishing ourselves.

Even if there is a God or a Heaven, that would be true. Original sin only means man shoots himself in the foot and he can't stop himself. I am glad we can at least agree that original sin is real.

[GenghisKhan44]

If you don't think the past don't have any meaningfulness to us, then I think you are mistaken.

Everything that allows you to live in the present, to operate in the present, and to shape the present for the future, is based on the past. Without the past, you will not have any valuable context to operate meaningfully in the present.

The past, present, and future are all important to any living and sentient creatures like us. The past is for context and reference, the present is for doing and planning (for the future, in which case you will still need to use and reference the past), and the future is what you are planning and shaping toward in the present, using what you know about the past. To have one without the others is not possible nor would be it conducive to a meaningful/purposeful life,

Simply, what I meant is that some people live to recapture the magic of youth, or in the hope that tomorrow will be better. Some live for customs and traditions which have lost their vitality, because no one understands why they do them anymore - for some the British crown, for some democracy, for some the use of Latin or Hebrew as a liturgical tongue. Some change customs in hopes of casting off the past to create a bright, new future - the way the Soviet Union did, the way Lunacharsky wanted to, the way the French revolution sought to, and the way many of the reformers after the Second Vatican Council did in the Catholic Church.

When I say I live in the present, not the past or the future, I am not saying I forget the past and do not prepare for the future. I agree with you. But I believe the past 6000+ years of history from Abraham onwards depend upon continuity, in which the past and the future share the same realities as the present. The world is intelligible - always was and always will be - God is present among us - to them in the Pillar of Fire, now in the person of Christ, first born then resurrected, and until the end of time in the Eucharist and the other sacraments - and God desires me to use my intellect and will to do His will - and I'm just continuing what Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, Paul, Sixtus, Justin Martyr, Chrysostom, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Olaf, Louis, Joan, John Nepomucene, John Vianney, Gianna Beretta Molla, Oscar Romero, and every other Saint, known and unknown, has done since God made the covenant and probalby before and beyond the scope of the Catholic Church and the Covenant as history knows it explicitly.

Everyone past or future of me who does what I mean to do in present - what God is always doing, in perfecting this imperfect world - is with me, helping me to do what I'm doing now. And that is how I live in the present.

[GenghisKhan44]

(Confirmation bias) It applies to everyone, and bringing it up among thoughtful people is really only a sign you do not trust their opinons.

Not sure why you think you need to add some negative labeling suggestion in there. If was merely a information post.

Do "you" trust "your own" opinions ?

I don't, nor do I mind adjusting them given proper new data/info.

(Ignoring other stuff. Religion tainted stuff bore me.)

Well, I shan't bore you any longer, then. I'm afraid you would find me far too boring, as I am as covered with Catholicism as Achilles was in the River Styx. (Yes, I know he had a weak spot; I am sure I am not invulnerable, either.)

[sMartins]

human beings are remarkably stupid

Human is not stupid, he's the most beautiful, perfect and glorious creature we know about and the machines we can build will never and ever even remotly come close to his immensity.

[Rexz]

@GenghisKhann44

Human beings can be very stupid indeed, I'll give you that. But, whenever you think of human stupidity, often time you can relate that stupidity to the nature of the average animal. We are afterall, scientifically part of the biological kingdom Animalia. If we think of some negative human traits that is relevant in our thinking of human stupidity, we surely can attribute those traits to an animal as well. But, I think it would really disgrace the goodness of humanity and human achievements if we were to declare that human beings are remarkably stupid. Humans are great creatures, but they are not perfect, just as nothing is perfect in this world, as abstract as the idea of perfect can be (which is very metaphysical and we can talk forever about that).

Also I am curious for one thing. You are religious yes? What do you think about the idea that God created humankind in God's image, as he did with Adam and Eve? Surely they weren't perfect, but then again they were the creation of God after all, and he did not intend us to be stupid, even though we betrayed his trust. Is God perfect as well? To have made imperfect creatures in HIS IMAGE? That is something I've been thinking and is curious about for a long time, I guess philospohers and theologists has been debating that for millenias, and they don't have the answer, so we will never will, only opinions and speculations.

[sMartins]

I'd like to answer also at this question Rexz, in the name of ours ancestors: " Yes, indeed, human is perfect. But let me ask you, how many humans do you see these days?"

[sMartins]

Dark Souls - Opening Cinematic HD

[Jalpha]

I believe very much in a flawed creator God. Which implies that I judge God (just as God supposedly judges us). However flaws are totally arbitrary. Things just are what they are. To imply flaws implies judgement based upon personal ideals. If there were nobody to judge God then God could be perfect, according to personal, arbitrary ideals.

It is my opinion that God is maturing as we do and as our species as a whole has been doing. Made in his image may be a deeper philosophical rabbit hole than any theologian would have you believe.