The Death of the Midgame

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The Death of the Midgame

Postby F1nch » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:55 am

Before posting my opinions here, I would like to explain my experiences with this game. I would estimate that I started playing Haven 3 years ago, though I don't remember exactly. I played on a different account, back then, one that I never really used on the forums. I started off playing solo, and played through worlds 8, 9, and 10 in that way. I didn't play for 11 but joined in on 12. This time, I was playing with a few friends. I got a lot of enjoyment out of the game and spent quite a bit of time working on my base and starting a small village.

My point with this is that Haven has a very engaging early game. I enjoyed building a base with some friends. We had a few animals, and some decent q crops. Then, more or less, we stopped playing. We would maybe get on once a day to replace curios and feed the animals, but after a while, even that stopped. Once our base had been completed, there was little to do in the game. We could work to get further and go on a tedious grind to increase q, but to what end? The players at the top would always be significantly better than anything we could achieve, and our little corner of the world was filled with nothing but other player groups who slowly went the way of our village. Since we did not join within the first few days of this new world, we were stuck.

Recently, the update logs have been full of tweaks, but it is hard not to feel frustrated when tweaks are only geared at the few factions of end-game players. The game's seige system could certainly use some work, but for a large part of the player base, boredom with the game is far more likely to cause us to leave than the seige system. I have similar feelings about the death and knockout system.

I am aware that most of this is whining, and will be seen as such by most of the users of this forum. However, I cannot help but feel that this is the issue causing Haven's player numbers to trickle away, until only these end-game players are left. I am personally not a game designer, but I do not feel that this issue can be fixed with simple game tweaks.

For fear of this post becoming too long, I will end with this. I personally believe that the developer's unending focus on the few end-game players will, eventually, drive away everyone except those players. For my fellow peasants and small village owners, how do you feel about this issue? Does the game hold your interest? What changes do you think could be made to prevent similar tedium? Thank you for reading.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby mvgulik » Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:07 am

F1nch wrote:We could work to get further and go on a tedious grind to increase q, but to what end?

That's always a bit of a problem with games that have no clear or fixed final target. You have to find one for yourself.

Personally I do also run into that. ... (well ... still have some tree-maze idea that I would like to explore. But other than that ... I don't know.)

F1nch wrote:I am aware that most of this is whining, and will be seen as such by most of the users of this forum.

Most that might react on your post are just the more outspoken ones. They do not constitute the forum majority.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby F1nch » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:52 am

mvgulik wrote:That's always a bit of a problem with games that have no clear or fixed final target. You have to find one for yourself.


I agree, and I think that sums up my point quite well. A lot of the fun of Haven is finding your own goals, and then pursuing them. My main concern is that there is a lack of content to facilitate this. With Haven, after a while, it is hard to feel that you are working towards something. I think that "now what?" feeling is what draws many players away from the game.

mvgulik wrote:Most that might react on your post are just the more outspoken ones. They do not constitute the forum majority.


I apolagize for the way that I worded my original statement, as I can now see that it can be read quite easily as an insult. I have seen similar threads be shot down, but your respectful response gives me hope that some good discussion can be had here.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby iamahh » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:40 pm

there's plenty to do in the game, problem is people want to be guided and told what to do next, which is impossible

I can't find time to do everything I want, every world is like that

also think some people stop playing because they feel they can't keep up with the routine, so they think is a waste of effort since eventually base will grow out of control or be raided

the radical solution to this is Claim based NPCs: peasants you could teach to do small efforts routinely, which could become smarter and stronger based on what you can provide them, like shelter, food, etc... basically add some RTS spice to the MMO
Last edited by iamahh on Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby mvgulik » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:29 pm

F1nch wrote:I apolagize for the way that I worded my original statement, as I can now see that it can be read quite easily as an insult.

No worries. I personally did not see it as a potential insult. And those that might ... are probably best ignored.

iamahh wrote:I can't find time to do everything I want,

Sounds very familiar to me ... as hermit player that is. General HnH household tasks can take a big bite out of ones available time, which takes its toll in the long run. :|
For players in a group that's probably a lesser issue.

(Mmm. Personally I probably should downscale some household tasks ... )
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:13 pm

Could you give some examples of updates geared towards specifically end game players?
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby Zentetsuken » Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:36 pm

I think the biggest problem is that this game is basically a multiplayer single player game.

The simple fact that there is always people leagues better than you is demotivating.

You are totally right about midgame, after a certain point your efforts only become an endless quality grind, and to what end? You can spend an incredible amount of time boosting your stuff or hoarding useful materials to trade to factions to buy even better stuff.

The difference between this game and most other mmo's is that most other mmo's have clear steps, clear tasks, a clear goal, a clear reason to grind even if 1000s of people are better than you

Haven's endgame goals are the ability to be able to do like 3-4 things, clear a beaver dungeon, clear a bat dungeon, kill trolls, kill other players?

Probably most of these things can just be completed with midgame shit by a small group too

And after you complete this stuff you just have to do it again, and again, but why?

It would definitely be cool if there were actual achievements in the game, things you could farm that were meaningful and rewarding, rare items, rare achievements, rare rewards, rare events, progressive difficulty, maybe even the ability to actual summon events with the use of progression?

silly but reasonable examples -
kill 1000 foxes to unlock the ability to summon a alpha fox that has a chance to drop some crazy cool shit
pick 1000 dandelions for a special achievement that unlocks some new content? maybe just aesthetic, but maybe also the chance to pick a totally new curio? maybe a new thing to craft with them even?

and before anybody says "well people will just bot that"

I say "okay" to this - while the people who play this game specifically for PVP bot industry to enjoy the endless titan grind, realm wars and more, maybe there will be something for a hermit to bot, totally fun achievements, totally achievable goals via menial endless grinding that actually reward you with something you can brag about instead of a higher number on an item that is still way lower than the best in the world
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby Jalpha » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:36 pm

The devs have been trying to improve mid-late game for everybody. They have even gone against some of their old beliefs in doing so, with the addition of quests and dungeons (though I am uncertain about the latter).

The problem is that this game is very clearly about player versus player interactions. A lot of experimentation has been done to improve that experience. The devs even tried level caps, and have nerfed permadeath very hard.

I don't have the ideas they need to improve PvP in H&H. Many years ago I raised ideas about encouraging non-pvp centric interactions (though that may have been for their other game). Nothing seemed to inspire the direction of development.

The "What is wrong with PvP in H&H" conversation has been done to death though. I only raise it again to highlight where the game is weakest. Wurm online had the same problem. Their financial model and server distribution made it much less of an issue though.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby WESKERBOY » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:07 am

I believe the primarly point Is "whats to do after I end up my base?" Well thats easy, as some of u already told, giv us achievments, giv us events, giv us rewards, things we can keep after a wipe out besides hats.

There should be a point besides q of stuff wich Is bassicaly grind. We need trophys, raids and other stuff. Also the game and hardest stuff should be achieve by everyone with effort not only botters and factions. Like a troll for example, Let some events scale in dificulty with players attributes, even with players core info like "hermit, villeage, faction"

Just a thought and I express It because personaly idc of a faction can kill a troll q 10000 and with 100000 hp, there should be a troll like dificulty suit for my character that even if It Is not as good Is good enough for my effort.
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Re: The Death of the Midgame

Postby Zentetsuken » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:54 pm

It would definitely be cool to have a goal for people who are not PVP obsessed.

If realm mechanics and major faction politics don't change over the next few worlds, this could be the answer to the age old "remember when blueberries were tradeable" concept

Imagine if a hermit, living under a PVP realm faction, had the ability to really expend hard effort, grind menial tasks that would actually benefit the realm in a way that makes that person an asset
Something deeper and more meaningful than being a guy who can deliver 1000s of iron ores or was lucky enough to have some alts parked at local resources like salt or realm materials (crystals, foul smoke, etc.) before we hit the point in the game where they become worthless.

Imagine if a hermit could forage and push industries to farm achievements that actually make that character better, and not just the quality of his gear.

If foraging an incredibly large number of something made your character an "expert" of that foragable, it could be a bonus similar to a permanent credo boost that gives your character a chance to brag and offer something useful to the world in exchange for their nolifing.

if (picking? eating? crafting with???) (1000? 2000? ++?) (blueberries) gave your character like a "(blueberry) mastery," as though he has gathered and used so many of this item that he has truly gained a new understanding of it, that would be super cool.

maybe a permanent 1 in 100 chance to pick a super blueberry curio that was top tier, or even some kind of super magic berry that could give a crazy boost to a recipe like a driftkelp would, or allowed you to literally unlock entirely new recipes with this that were actually decent

These would be the new meaningful content that this character spent hard effort to unlock that could now help to make him a unique asset to a realm, give him something GOOD to trade, to farm, to care about...

if there was things like this for MANY different curios and foragables, from snapdragons to squirrels to strange crystals, and all the new content was actually GOOD, there would be so many avenues for people to actually be good and useful that no single bot-factory realm pvp faction titan village would ever have the time or care or ability to do these all themselves

Sounds super fucking fun tbh
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