HnH Needs Adjustment to Wipe Frequency or Progression

[Archiplex]

snail hunted you down for a thread from 2019? Ok retard+not reading allat

in 2019 yea

[DonVelD]

surely i got sidged by snail for this specific thing for the reasons i made up in my head, not because he sidged the whole world

[Vaku]

...Hence the proposal for less necessary grind.

I agree, and as you state, this problem is endemic to survival/crafting games.

The nature of what each world becomes can be broadly boiled down to your statement,

The majority of early game content becomes completely obsolete, and non-industry endgame content starts to rely on automated/botted production (massive farming/milk/cheese operations where a few botters feed an entire faction and an army of animals), and there's a real breakdown in the game's rapid shift to a few basic tasks done to near infinity, which simply isn't fun.

This is faction play, and despite faction play being an experience most players do not get to share, the ramifications of faction play are felt by everyone. Faction play is felt in the game's economy and PvP interactions, and it is common for a broader swathe of players to become victims to faction players, who compulsively grind, grind, and grind. Whether it is anyone's specific playstyle, it is an inevitable outcome that players feel the effects of the quality grind. Even if we do not play like this, I do not agree we ignore this issue.

Worlds back, I felt level caps made sense to permit space for other game activities to become more prominent, but that was not the outcome. Similarly, I am not sold on the notion that clockwork world resets will do much to resolve desires for less necessary grinds. I feel that the fact that botting feels compulsory yields the same effect as a level cap.

Competitive advancement hinges on inhuman labor devoted to repetitive tasks. Since most players cannot justify the inhuman hours of labor that bots input, players reach a labor cap and must justify their reason for playing as something other than the quality race. In a bot-free world, competitive advancement would rely on players coming together with a common purpose. Instead, factions compete with botting resources and community tasks revolve around the setup and execution of botting infrastructure. Bots undermine the incentives for players to come together, stifle community growth, and keep reasons to come together or stick around, scarce.

I think a path towards a resolution involves pushing the boundaries of PvE content. Due to all players living or dying by whether they can stay hidden from those who grind quality, the playing field is just not textured enough to justify sticking through all the PvE content, when much of it is so entwined with the quality race. I could be mistaken, like when I thought level caps might free up attention. It may well be that HnH's feature of making the quality number go bigger holds the strongest attraction to this game, and restarting that number frequently is appealing. I ignore quality, so I can enjoy other parts of the game with a small group, but factions like Whatever Bay cannot ignore that 9-week PvE content race, largely because botting quality, FEPs, and wealth, is the difference between dozens of people holding out, and being trounced at world start.

Anyways.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

I think we can debate until the world freezes over if faction play or competitive play is good or bad or whatever, but I think most people can agree that the game is most lively, active, and fun, in the first two and a half months of server up.

Can that be sustained over the long term and keep the game healthy with some minor changes? I don't see the harm in finding out.

Status quo where the game is active for a couple months then inactive for 11-13 can't be described as good.

[abt79]

I mean yeah

Tedious/laborious gameplay in a game where that tedious labor gives some advantage will always be botted if possible.
J+L seem to think this is an issue down to the systems they’ve designed and wish to solve it systemically rather than, say, banning every botter from now til forever. And they’re correct, but they also want the game to be tedious. See the (now not so) recent rework to glassmaking.
Maybe haven is such an interesting game because of this conflict but it is fundamental within a grindy mmo that also grants those who grind the hardest the most competitive PVP power. Devs have two contradictory design aims, they don’t seem to realize they’re contradictory, so the tension persists.


Perhaps longer worlds are a good thing since they allow a chance for players who match the devs’ de facto vision for the game (ie larpers) to survive with relatively less optimally competitive players “harassing” them. But that assumes a level of intentionality/attention towards the game I wouldn’t really grant the devs.

[Hickupp]

Why not try to talk to dev's about a potential additional test sub world. Like Valhalla but:
- With normal game rules.
- With a bit bigger map than Valhalla sub world.
- That resets after ... one faction has claimed N% of the map, or whatever else that might work.
- That has its own related cemetery. (no inheriting mixing between worlds)
Seems to me the game is more than capable of doing this (minor updates/issues aside).

[grumgrumganoe]

i just took a shit and wiped, 8/10 experience

honestly……….same

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Why not try to talk to dev's about a potential additional test sub world. Like Valhalla but:
- With normal game rules.
- With a bit bigger map than Valhalla sub world.
- That resets after ... one faction has claimed N% of the map, or whatever else that might work.
- That has its own related cemetery. (no inheriting mixing between worlds)
Seems to me the game is more than capable of doing this (minor updates/issues aside).

I mean, I'm not opposed to two worlds running in parallel, short and long.
But the test may be more successful if it was done on the main branch.

Is there anything stopping Jorb/Loftar from announcing, 8 months from now, that they are going to be doing a 3 month long world (in advance of the wipe), to test community participation and reaction? There would be nothing stopping them from reverting to 12+ month wipes thereafter if it isn't well received.

[springyb]

bro there is literally nothing stopping the devs from making the exact game I want them too what in the actual fuck

[SnuggleSnail]

I'm a turbo autist, but even I would skip every second world at least if they were on a three months schedule. That's what I know I'd do just thinking about it, the actual feeling of being involved in wipes that frequent would probably be worse. This would not stem the natural decay every MMO has between major patches, it'd just make resets mundane.

If people have a problem with the late game the better solution is to make the late game suck less. Previous worlds had big issues late world, but the current mechanics make enjoying the late world neigh impossible for a normal person, or even an autist who's dedicating less than their entire life to the game. It's unsustainable.