How does Shield Up work?

[Hasta]

I've been meaning to seek some clarification on the matter for some time now, so please post an elaborate comment, as if you were explaining this to someone who's new to Hafen combat system (which is, theory-wise, my exact situation).

Ok, more to the point. I was fighting a Troll recently. His normal attacks, although surprisingly rapid, couldn't penetrate my armor's Reflection (let's say it's around 150), but when I used Shield Up, every (normal!) incoming attack would bring it down to, rough guesstimate, 1/3 of value. Seeing that my Melee Combat skill is at around 300, and havng carefully studied the tooltip for Shield Up, I could expect my block's value to be at least around 900, so an attack that would take off 2/3 of value would have to be around 600 points.

So, here's my question. How does all that work?
1. When it comes to comparing block value vs. attack value, the block is (according to the skill description) 900 and attack is ~600.
2. When the attack is compared with my reflection value, the reflection is 150 and the attack is... well, less.

I've tried to figure something out with math (maybe troll attacks with 3 different types and does triple damage to my shield block? duh), but couldn't test my theories. Maybe there are some hidden value caps in play that I'm not aware of? Maybe there's a typo somewhere in the skills descriptions?

I've searched the forum and asked questions about "combat weight" (which, I'd expect, applies the same way to blocks and reflections alike) and "combat delta" (which, apparently, only applies to determine cooldowns) but could find very little of very controversial info. Please, would someone experienced and knowledgeable comment a thorough explanation of the system?

[Potjeh]

IIRC it's third root of the ratio.

[Hasta]

IIRC it's third root of the ratio.

An elaborate comment with a thorough explanation indeed . What is evaluated as ∛ of what ratio?

[Webway]

I've got about as much knowledge as the OP but have tested a little while dueling with characters with known stats.

TAKE THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. I'll edit this post if I find out it's wrong but I DON'T know it to be correct, just a plausible explanation of observed results. It would be possible to test this exactly in a duel between two characters with known stats, but I have not done so.

Third root of the ratio is believable, though I don't actually have any verification it's exactly that. If it is the results as best I can determine would be the following:

let a = AttackWeight, b = TotalBlockWeight (the sum of all Blocks' weight which are hit by the single attack), d = AttackDamage (the damage that would be taken if the attack were unblocked)


if a <= b:
no damage taken
block weight left after attack = (1 - (a/b)^(1/3)) * b

else:
damage taken before AC = (1 - (b/a)^(1/3)) * d
no affected block(s) left

[Potjeh]

Ratio of combat skills, of course. Using your 900 and 600 numbers, that'd mean 600/900 is the ratio, ie the total defense taken off Shield Up is third root of 2/3 (600/900), or ~.87. If you had a third of Shield Up left, that should put the troll's UA at around 250.

[Hasta]

So, if I were to block Troll's attack with a Quick Dodge having 300 UA, he would also take off just 2/3 of my block, since the ratio would be the same .87? But Quick Dodge equals Unarmed while Shield Up equals 3 times Melee. But the ratio is the same. I guess you can see my confusion is justified. I honestly don't get the whole math and formula.

In particular, I can't understand where that ratio of .87 is applied to. I can see where you get these numbers, but still would really appreciate the whole process chewed for me like for a 4-year old =(

And even if the formula is sound, how does it justify the difference between blocked and unblocked attack damage?

[Potjeh]

No, the .87 is how much 600UA would hit for vs a 300MC Shield Up. I estimated 250UA for troll using .66 hit. If you were to use 300UA Quick Dodge you'd only have a sliver left if troll has 250UA. If he had 300 UA he would take exactly the whole thing, ie his 300UA attack divided by your 300UA defence would give you a 1.0 ratio, which remains 1.0 when you take it's third root. As for the actual damage, I'm not sure, but I think it's simply the percentage of the attack that carries over after breaking a defence.

[Hasta]

the .87 is how much 600UA would hit for vs a 300MC Shield Up. I estimated 250UA for troll using .66 hit.

Ok it felt for a moment that I'm starting to understand this, but then what is the point of Shield Up being equal "MC x3"? Shouldn't it be "a 900MC Shield Up" here and put troll's UA in the vicinity of 700+?

Excuse me for being so dense and hair-splitting (and at this point, probably, annoying), but noone in-game or anywhere else seem to have any clue about this.

So. If the percentage of a block left after an attack is determined solely by skills ratio, should we take into account the multipliers in the skills' descriptions; in this case, should I consider Shield Up with 300MC a 900MC-block?

[tweinst]

shield up with 300 MC vs troll with 250 attack weight:

250 / (300 * 3) = 0.278
(0.278)^(1/3) = 0.65 which is how much of your shield up is consumed.

quick dodge with 300 UA vs troll with 250 attack weight:

250 / 300 = 0.833
(0.833)^(1/3) = 0.94 consumed

The real benefit of shield up is when you're defending against something much stronger than you. If the troll attacks with 500, you get:

shield up: ((500/(300*3))^(1/3) = 0.82 leaving 0.18 of your block up
quick dodge: (500/300)^(1/3) = 1.19 letting (1 - 1/1.19) = 0.16 of the attack through

[Hasta]

a very convincing math

Ok, these things I was ready to believe. Now, can you please guide me on how to estimate the amount of reflection needed in order to completely ignore the attack, based on the ratios and other observations I could make with the info that have been provided in this thread?

EDIT: just to make it clear that I understand the math (and, hopefully, to help out some other theorycrafters out there)

My Skill Value (multipliers of a particular combat move applied) - MSV - is compared to my Opponent's Skill Value (multipliers of a particular combat move applied) - OSV. ∛(MSV/OSV) gives me a ratio by which the remaining block or or the penetrating attack is evaluated, where 1 is representing the 100% of my block's value or an opponent's penetrating attack's value.

Now, what about reflection and how can I count that one?