Lord of Shadows & The Fellowship of the Kilns

[Potjeh]

Apoc, IMO in Haven like in real life we can apply the concept of just war. For a war to be just, it must have just cause, be carried out by just means and have a reasonable chance for success. Self-defense is a classic just cause, and we were forced into it as Zox quite directly declared war on us when Burg tried to negotiate. The means I guess you can consider a bit iffy as we resorted to total destruction rather than temporarily ending the war by killing his character and thus rendering him unable to fight, but we got a pretty clear impression from talking to him that he wouldn't agree to peace under any circumstances. As for chance of success, having gathered all these allies I'd say it was more than reasonable. So yeah, I'd say our side was just here. As for Zox, I think he clearly fails on the cause and means, and the chance of success doesn't look so great either given how negligible he was about his defenses.

[Grable]

This thread has been suspiciously civil so far. I'm predicting Zox's side of story will spice things up a bit, I don't think it'll be completely aligned with the story from attacking side.

That being said all RMT deserve a nice death. It seems Jorb doesn't mind it, but at least players can do something about it

[Tonkyhonk]

It seems Jorb doesn't mind it, but at least players can do something about it

i dont see it that jorb doesnt mind it, but id assume that he doesnt find it fair to actually accuse someone of something out of a chat log which you could always fake if you wanted to. (that does not mean i doubt the fact that zox was rmter, i believe he is, but just as an example.) or more like, devs would rather like to stay out of babysitting interventions for the time being. those who have paid zox real cash are also definitely guilty but arent revealed, and they all should be murdered and earthed imo. if nobody buys it, then there is no business for him.

hopefully devs could do something about it sometime soon to deal with both the suppliers and buyers, but also im afraid its not easy unless you can afford to hire some manpower to do it, like wow management can actually go knocking on the guys door. its probably the most effective if you could use the ingame means to punish those people individually. (maybe jorb and loftar should have a secret faction that goes around raiding botters and rmters behind the scenes.)

[Amanda44]

I'm also really keen to hear what Zox has to say about it from his perspective, but still, what-ever reasons he may have had for killing someone, most players are aware that there may be repercussions from that action.

I'm not saying there aren't reprecussions, he took a risk and it did not pay off. Now that this has all happened it's just a bit shameful to see all of this shunning after the event.

From my perspective the 'shunning' comes from the fact that he was trading in rl money and that he tried to then exhort rl money, not so much that he killed a player in a pvp game.

To then try and demand rl money from other players in order to prevent him taking any further measures against them simply negates any kind of understanding, reasoning or sympathy.
How can there be an excuse for that kind of behaviour .....

Honestly, I think people have a bit too much at stake here to not be biased. He tried to resolve the conflict with an ultimatum (THIS IS NOT A STATEMENT REGARDING MY OPINION OF SAID ULTIMATUM), which was to resolve peacefully (consider this a regular trade at regular rates), or let the dispute be resolved through fighting. The other side took none of it and so that's that.

I just can't look at it that way when it wasn't a regular trade at regular rates, I'm sorry. I do understand the point you are trying to make though. I personally would have preferred the dispute to have been settled by fighting if a reasonable peaceful solution couldn't have been found, I don't find demanding rl money a reasonable proposal.

ApocalypsePlease wrote:
Here's another thing for the record: I won't be around for long, my future has other options worth pursuing that will prevent me from continuing to play. Hafen sadly has not caught my eye the same way Legacy had done before, I feel the community is a lot less friendly than it used to be. Everyone is so tense towards eachother because of history. I can't claim to understand though, I was never around for any factional dispute before.

Also sorry to hear you are leaving again, it's been nice to see you back around here .... .... good luck in what ever it is that is taking you off again.
I actually think the community is a lot more friendly than it used to be, lol, it's funny how different people view things.

... its probably the most effective if you could use the ingame means to punish those people individually. (maybe jorb and loftar should have a secret faction that goes around raiding botters and rmters behind the scenes.)

Yeah, now that would be cool, I'd be happy to be in that faction, once I've become more adept at pvp.

[Archiplex]

Here's another thing for the record: I won't be around for long, my future has other options worth pursuing that will prevent me from continuing to play. Hafen sadly has not caught my eye the same way Legacy had done before, I feel the community is a lot less friendly than it used to be. Everyone is so tense towards eachother because of history. I can't claim to understand though, I was never around for any factional dispute before.

We'll miss you Apoc ;---;


Anyways, I don't really understand the discussions/arguments all too well- it seems pretty clear to me that Zox just pissed off a /lot/ of people, and then got rammed/killed because of it.

Pretty sure nobody on our side even knew he was on vacation until after the fact and it was pretty justified (I mean, he was the one to declare war- and even when negotiating he demanded 50$ or 100$ for constant access to clay- that's pretty ridiculous. I'm surprised nobody raided him just off the fact he wanted to RMT). Most of us wanted to talk it out peacefully first but he seemed to make it pretty clear he was only interested in the money for the clay otherwise war.


Personally I'm just a little distraught since certain alliances but I'm not going to let that affect my actions or anything. HG is pretty nice and comfortable to be in.

(And the constant bringing up of 'moderator forces' is funny to me still)

[Powowclouds]

It seems Jorb doesn't mind it, but at least players can do something about it

hopefully devs could do something about it sometime soon to deal with both the suppliers and buyers, but also im afraid its not easy unless you can afford to hire some manpower to do it, like wow management can actually go knocking on the guys door.

I assume when you say "wow management" you are referring to Blizzard and please forgive me if I am wrong, however if this is the case not even multi billion dollar companies such as them can do anything about RMT besides attempt to prevent the accused players of playing the game and or have a huge legal team to go after said players for breach of terms of service which I don't believe this game even has. They definitely can not go knocking on peoples doors as with Blizzard most of the people that do this type of thing are in other countries, mostly China in this case which they have absolutely no jurisdiction in. Hiring a legal team to attempt to resolve this issue is very costly and not ever worth it, especially if the main offenders reside in a country with a different set of laws regarding RMT.

Pretty much the only options a smaller company such as this one has in this situation is to either actively try and prove that the RMT is happening and then take actions against that person via in game means (IP ban, character wipe, nuke..etc), or do as a few other small companies have done and provide players with a competing service that basically doesn't make it worth it to attempt to sell "blackmarket" items. I have seen this work in other games in the past but it is a very tricky thing to pull off and keep the games integrity intact. I cant remember what the name of the game was that it worked the best in as it was about 10 years ago, however from what I remember there was a purchasable currency that players could use in game to purchase items from other players the seller of the items could sell the currency back to the company at a hugely discounted rate, I want to say it was about 25% of what the company sold the currency for. I knew quite a few players that had the time to "no life" the game and make a decent amount of money, while players who had other obligations were able to get the things they needed to enjoy the game also. Not saying this would work in this situation but just offering some insight as I have seen this issue first hand while working for Blizzard.

ROC

[Amanda44]

Personally I'm just a little distraught since certain alliances but I'm not going to let that affect my actions or anything. HG is pretty nice and comfortable to be in.

Feeling you there ..... but the same, good group of people in HG and pretty relaxed environment.

[Tonkyhonk]

I assume when you say "wow management" you are referring to Blizzard

i was referring to this jorbs post and link, if you didnt get it.

*edit*
@Powowclouds,
im not willing to knock around with your derail further.

[Powowclouds]

I assume when you say "wow management" you are referring to Blizzard

i was referring to this jorbs post and link, if you didnt get it.

My apologies I assumed that most of your post was in regards to RMT as I was unaware Zox was botting as well. Botting is still a issue for major companies as well and if they are unable to prevent it with the millions they make a year, it will be very hard for the developers here to prevent it. Unfortunately some people will always do whatever they can to not have to work as hard as someone else and when they can spend all of their time and focus on getting around the system and developers must spend their time and focus on developing they are going to win the battle in these types of situations.

[ArvinJA]

I find it super amusing to see political science majors try to squeeze some more mileage out of their degrees. It's actually not about morality at all, but rather quite simple, as I think Patch already pointed out, but I want to pile on. Zox rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, made some stupid decisions, and of course, there are consequences for those kinds of things. Sure, go ahead, bring sociology into it if you'd like, I enjoy reading it, but it's bound to end up very ad-hoc.

Though, one could probably make a point that RMT threatens the status system of our "subculture" by bridging the gap between RL and the game world, but really, even that is a stretch since this is a simple matter of actions and consequences.