World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby CSPAN » Thu May 12, 2016 1:54 am

To dive right into it, a lot of people, if not most, would agree that things have become stagnant and uninteresting after 3 months of this world, sooner for some, later for casual players like myself. Resulting in an eventual decline in population that remains persistent.
Readily Available is the population tracker. Seen below.

Image

LINK: http://199.233.247.46/RedFox/Haven/Tracker.html

Although you can see decline has happened from the start of both worlds, the good news is that decline has been much slower, showing the game has been much more successful this world over the last. But you can notice that decline is picking up pace, notably towards the end of April.

Obviously, this is something anyone can notice and conclude. It comes down to what can be done to keep things fresh, through suggestion, that isn't over the top.

The current meta, from my own experience comes down to this:
-Get your discoveries and Basic skills
-Set up temporary camp for character development
-Rush Survival on at least one character to search for good quality nodes
-Build a permanent settlement (ideally) near said quality Node
-Start Farm, petting zoo, and material industry
-Rush to level 5, pray you find something worthwhile ie. quality nodes, gold, and silver
-Improve gear and equipment
-Trade until you dont really need anything

That's my experience thus far, nothing exciting, but it's fun with drama and high competition for nodes and resources early on in the world. At this point, its watch numbers go up and having villagers and neighbors move on to other things until a new world, or an exciting update.

Current PvE is not interesting in any way. Killing a mammoth for the first time is cool, sure, its a personal accomplishment. But I discovered it was much much easier than I thought it would be. As the strongest, readily available game, I am left without a challenge, aside from PvP. Trolls would be great to see, but all too hard to find. Which is why many, especially in larger factions, turn to bot mining aimlessly into the stone, until one appears, sometimes more than once a day. A feature not available to 99% of the population.

PvP, according to those who are more experienced than I, say its dead. A small portion of the population will fight, for the sake of fighting, ever so often just for the excitement, rather than for geopolitical reasons. And honestly, geopolitical warfare is for the factions, the ones with the time to find the best of the best as early as possible, and then fortifying it. As small as this world is, anything good thats easily accessible is already taken. In my opinion, a game where someone can't gain footing, simply because they were too late to the scene, is doomed to decline. On top of a population of bored advanced players who will probably your demise for their entertainment.

To combat this decline, more content, although needed, isnt necessarily the answer, because all it does is push back the inevitable. Some ideas I'd like to see, in summary, are:

1.) World Resets every 3-5 months with varying/random elements and a different map
-"Who would want to put in all sorts of work to see it potentially wiped after a few/several months?" Be as bored as I am with the game and youll want to see it burn. I think making the game a competition of sorts would deter people from putting in effort, competition is attractive, its addictive. The most action and fun is within those first 3-4 months, which is reflective of the competitive nature of that world stage. Go as far as giving accolades/badges for accomplishments in each world to villages, like highest this, highest that, most this and that w/e. The reward is pride! Could re-implement world ending events.

2.) Stop adding more strenuous, tedious tasks, and give up the tri quality system.
-The Gilding system, although incredibly helpful to already developed people, has made starting the game, not only more confusing, but more difficult. A large number of once traded goods have become useless, fox hats, druid cloak, badger vest, ranger stuff,etc. And who wants to sit around and work with chances and percentiles in hopes of extra slots, youre gambling your time away for a chance its not been wasted.
-Tri Quality system is a pest, a majority of people dont like it, give it up.

3.) Mainstream Trolls in a way it still takes work and uncertainty.
-The only way to successfully find them is running bots that grid mine all day and all night. Instead of just having to stumble upon one, why not give some sort of exp event that signals that there is a Troll somewhere in the vicinity.

4.) Content, even though its not the answer (#1 is)



Im just player with nothing to do and nothing left worthwhile to accomplish. Its clear that world decline is a big part of every iteration of the game, and that the goal is to not need world resets, but this games meta in insufficient for long term success in my own opinion, thats shared with other diehard haven fiends. So ultimately lets share meta changing ideas that could result in long term success.

Dont hurt my feelings
inb4 tl;dr
Last edited by CSPAN on Thu May 12, 2016 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby Ysh » Thu May 12, 2016 2:15 am

CSPAN wrote:1.) World Resets every 3-5 months with varying/random elements and a different map
-"Who would want to put in all sorts of work to see it potentially wiped after a few/several months?" Be as bored as I am with the game and youll want to see it burn. I think making the game a competition of sorts would deter people from putting in effort, competition is attractive, its addictive. The most action and fun is within those first 3-4 months, which is reflective of the competitive nature of that world stage. Go as far as giving accolades/badges for accomplishments in each world to villages, like highest this, highest that, most this and that w/e. The reward is pride! Could re-implement world ending events.

Far too short for world for me. I think world reset is not feature of game, just necessary for major change (e.g. to map generation). The goal should be for no resets to happen at all. Doing regular resetting is bandaid fix for game with stale endgame.
CSPAN wrote:2.) Stop adding more strenuous, tedious tasks

This is whole game though. :lol:
CSPAN wrote: -The Gilding system, although incredibly helpful to already developed people, has made starting the game, not only more confusing, but more difficult. A large number of once traded goods have become useless, fox hats, druid cloak, badger vest, ranger stuff,etc. And who wants to sit around and work with chances and percentiles in hopes of extra slots, youre gambling your time away for a chance its not been wasted.

Undecided on this one, I think I can wait for some more developments to it before judgement.
CSPAN wrote: -Tri Quality system is a pest, a majority of people dont like it, give it up.

Yes.
CSPAN wrote:3.) Mainstream Trolls in a way it still takes work and uncertainty.
-The only way to successfully find them is running bots that grid mine all day and all night. Instead of just having to stumble upon one, why not give some sort of exp event that signals that there is a Troll somewhere in the vicinity.

Indifferent to this one. I do not think adding trolls to fight easy will carry the late game onto its back.
CSPAN wrote:4.) Content, even though its not the answer (#1 is)

More content is always more good, but players will always finish it faster than it could be made. Only answer is for player made content (e.g. PvP) being fun and replayable.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby CSPAN » Thu May 12, 2016 2:35 am

Well a map is limited space, nodes are limited, theres simply no way to keep a map going on forever, unless they added expansions over time or something. It simply wont work with current meta.

Pvp will always be stacked toward the side of the people who bot and who ultimately start the game first, all of course unless they join others, but not a lot of villages enjoy taking on fresh characters. And looking into a game knowing youre immediately going to need to try to get with a group who already have everything just doesnt sound good. Especially since set up and the first hectic 2 months are the best. Its all downhill after that.

and I wouldnt say make trolls easier, I just think its silly you have to just dig around hoping you find one, its so fucking bland. Personally Id rather see bears/mammoths/trolls being much more difficult.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby Ysh » Thu May 12, 2016 2:41 am

CSPAN wrote:Well a map is limited space, nodes are limited, theres simply no way to keep a map going on forever, unless they added expansions over time or something. It simply wont work with current meta.

Correct. Current game state does not allow for this. But I think it should be goal to alter mechanics for world to last forever.
CSPAN wrote:Pvp will always be stacked toward the side of the people who bot and who ultimately start the game first, all of course unless they join others, but not a lot of villages enjoy taking on fresh characters. And looking into a game knowing youre immediately going to need to try to get with a group who already have everything just doesnt sound good. Especially since set up and the first hectic 2 months are the best. Its all downhill after that.

Skill cap means player can always catch up. I think it is possible to accomplish allowing new players to play this game. Other game example EVE online has lots of skills but new player can still enter game. Obviously this is much different game, but I do not yet believe this one to be impossible for us too.
CSPAN wrote:and I wouldnt say make trolls easier, I just think its silly you have to just dig around hoping you find one, its so fucking bland. Personally Id rather see bears/mammoths/trolls being much more difficult.

I was not clear, I do not think troll should be easy to fight. I mean to say easy to find for fighting, as you suggest. Strong PvE monster would be good, but I think it can not carry late game on its back alone.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby Vaku » Thu May 12, 2016 3:22 am

Some Vaku Impressions
I've kept our group active by turning into a recruiter for the initial 16 that left New Brodgar.

It took me 20 days to construct an attractive & secure entry point for noobs that opened on March 26th.
Up to the day of this post—46 days, we've acquired 69 players.

Of those, a number of them have reduced their playtime to 0.
In addition, of the original 16 that left New Brodgar, there are only a handful that login to play daily.

In our community, I look at nearly 20 people logged in at any one time.


20 / 85 people, is approx 23% retention.
If I were generous and said that I'm not seeing the same 20 people, and we're looking at a base of diehards and a cycle of +10 people, 30/85 is only 35% retention.

In my most generous estimations we're below 50% retention!

In this group, I try to add in purpose to help and increase that retention. Without comparing metrics with any other groups, this does not seem to be working tremendously well, given our abysmal retention over 2 months.
As a player, I'm struggling to log in daily, myself, and I have all but given up on any daily chore, save bringing people into the fold!

My personal playtime has reduced, perhaps because I am an introvert presiding over a large group, but running a group is a taxing operation in and of itself.
I wonder, what sort of revamp to village tools could allow even the meekest leaders acquire, organize, and retain people? (I anticipate some announcement on kinlist changes so I don't spend a lot wasted air with my own suggestions).

I find hosting events to be a great way of getting people online and in one area. I feel that implementing more obvious gatherings as those around bonfires would be a way to help to keep people online and playing:
For instance, a bonfire is a gathering event around eating...

I propose looking into similar somewhat modular events such as the below examples:
EVENT | FUNCTION
Bonfire | Eating
Irrigation (Fertile Soil event) | Farming
Bloodmoon (Weakened Claims/opportune period for attack) | Fighting
Druid Story (Designate player uses item/does something) | LP Increase in area


Etc., etc.

The intent behind such events is that it would allow a common period and incentive for people to log in together, and they'd address enough areas of gameplay to remain interesting for players across the board, but few enough that they're something of an endgame in and of themselves.


Additionally, I strongly believe that implementing some graphical equivalent of an RTS border would work tremendously in motivating, mobilizing, and keeping groups interested in playing to maintain their territory. Claims simply aren't a fun enough mechanic.
Image


Short of creating a highly zoomed in RTS, I think there is a lot that can be adapted from RTS's and improved upon to help make the endgame interesting.


Give us metrics! What do you know that's proven to get higher player retention?
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby Ysh » Thu May 12, 2016 4:02 am

Vaku wrote:Retention.

I think you are taking in the fresh babes for your village. You must expect many of these will leave, I think. As long as this game will be niche, I think most of the player who try will not like it. Personally, my village is having 100% retention. The trick is to know where each player you have in village will be living in the real live, so that if they do not do the chore they can have a paid visit from ''Dex'' and ''Buster'' if you are knowing my meaning.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby Vaku » Thu May 12, 2016 4:42 am

Ysh wrote:
Vaku wrote:Retention.

I think you are taking in the fresh babes for your village. You must expect many of these will leave, I think. As long as this game will be niche, I think most of the player who try will not like it. Personally, my village is having 100% retention. The trick is to know where each player you have in village will be living in the real live, so that if they do not do the chore they can have a paid visit from ''Dex'' and ''Buster'' if you are knowing my meaning.


I deleted a section I had on the different players who remain. Turns out I should have kept it!

While it may appear from the outside that the main demographic attracted to Viðarrheim are the very newest players, these only make up a VERY small portion of our community.

A number of us are veterans of numerous years playing this game—nevertheless, some of these "borequit," to phrase it as one of these veterans did today.
Many are returning veterans who played years ago, and for whatever revitalizing efforts of Jorb & Loftar, they're returning and some are joining Viðarrheim.

Another larger portion of players in the community around Viðarrheim are players who existed anywhere from the start of the world to just a few weeks ago. These players have shared numerous testimonies, saying, "I've been playing by myself (or in a small group & my friends stopped playing), I saw your group, and I've wanted to give your group a try." These people are THE absolute most committed players who login every day. The take away from this demographic is that when people make a big move and keep a majority of their belongings, this transition is enough to motivate people for another month or two of playing. We've reached a period when some of our earliest people from this demographic are borequitting.

It may take an email or two to get them back in, but to retain players at larger, it is in my less than scientific opinion that we'd be benefited by having more organizational tools, more events, more things to do as a village.

You mention that you need real-life connection to the person to maintain play here, but that's just not the case. My collection of friends and family, as with many others, just move on to a different game or other sort of life activity.

Yes, this game is quite niche, but there can always be a change to moment-to-moment gameplay that makes it so much more accessible, and changes to longterm gameplay that make it so much more persistent in the lives of players.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby GamingRAM » Thu May 12, 2016 5:49 am

I think events mid-world would help.

Say every few days, weeks maybe a couple of meteors would land (with the obvious precautions such as not being able to land in claimed territory) randomly through-out the world and can be mined for things like gold nuggets and other rare minerals.

I settled near a beach and every now and again something washed up on shore. It's mostly crap, but sometimes I find something I really like. They are like goodie bags, a surprise and you never know what you're going to get. Even hermits benefit from these. So I think it would be beneficial to expand on this idea.
- Bigger bodies of water
- More beaches
- More actual islands (they are very to find)
- More water based resources to encourage more naval fights (which results in more crap being thrown into the water)

There could be some mountains that nobody has settled on. Jorb is feeling evil that day and says "F you guys" and makes one of them erupt, spewing out fresh ores that can be mined, mixed in with a very dangerous environment.



That's all I got for now excluding some sillier ideas.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby barra » Thu May 12, 2016 6:34 am

Public Leaderboards for LP, with associated character names and village membership. Maybe leaderboards for item quality, so you know you have the world's second best carrot and the best root is somewhere in another village. It would foster natural rivalry beyond resource control and revenge.
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Re: World Decline: Thoughts and Suggestions On Meta

Postby boreial » Thu May 12, 2016 8:07 am

IMHO (and I KNOW this would not be even remotely popular)

1} 1 character per account , 1 free week to evaluate game, after that account must be subbed to continue. (who really wants to make an alt every week per their however many accounts they can create?)

2} Remove Villages ( if everyone had to do it alone, then they wouldn't be maxed out in under 2 weeks time after a world reset)
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