Alchemy Suggestions

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Alchemy Suggestions

Postby APXEOLOG » Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:06 pm

Not long ago I finally decided to look into the alchemy. I'd say that I really like the implementation. To me such knowledge-based mechanics are the most interesting. However, the end result was a bit underwhelming. The main problem with the Alchemy is that is is not rewarding enough to justify the investment. I have a couple of suggestions to bring it on par with the rest game content.

Let's establish the current state of alchemy first:

  • Alchemy requires huge time investment to determine ingredient effects (150+ different herbs and minerals that can be combined with each other and even with other combinations)
  • Even when you already know the effects you still need to gather different ingredients (sometimes seasonal) for a good elixir
  • Some crafts are gated by the certain progression level (i.e. hard metals, precious metals)
  • It is hard to create high-quality elixirs. Not only alchemy tools Q is heavily affected by Rough Polish (i.e. Wax & Sand) but the ingredients themselves have bad quality due to more than half of them being foragable herbs

There are two types of the elixir effects:
Buff certain stat/skill for a duration
Image
This is the example of the elixir with 3 matching strength ingredients. It gives 50 strength for 7.5 minutes + a wound that deals massive amount of damage and will heal for a loooong time (a week?).
How useful is this elixir? Well, not really useful. As a miner I'd use it 2 or 3 times during this world when I required just a sliver of strength to mine on a new level after the minehole was ready.

I spent 2 RL days starting from zero alchemy knowledge to discover enough ingredients for this kind of elixir (on the complete industry, having access to all minerals and herbs). If we put into perspective that I could've just done quests for those 2 days I would be able to get enough EXP for a several gilding songs, LP, hunger restoration, etc that will result in the same +50 str (even more tbh) but permanent and without any wounds.

If we consider the top-end elixir with str/masonry/duration bonuses, so let's say it will be: +50 str, +50 masonry for 15 minutes without any wounds. Would I use it as a miner? Yes, it's a good elixir for the first month of the world (maybe even up to the second month if you're not playing that much). However, to create such an elixir I would probably require at least a week to find proper ingredients. It is simply not comparable to the value.

Heal certain wound
Image
Just some random "healing" elixir. The problem with healing elixirs is that compared to W12 when Alchemy has been added, most of the wounds nowdays already have a better and cheap healing solution. You simply cannot justify going alchemy route when you can just craft an Ant Paste. Elixirs are also quite slow and does "wound conversion" for some wounds, which is not desirable.

I'd like to see alchemy elixirs being used on a daily basis and really having an influence on the game. So there are some suggestions here:
1. Balance changes
  1. Increase the basic elixir duration to 30 minutes. It would be useful during the early game everyday game activities like mining, foraging, hunting, etc. even with wounds being applied. Later in the game it would be reallistic to add a duration increase property as well, resulting in 1 hour elixir duration which is nice (it's not that much, we already have a fishing song for that duration)
  2. Elixir's side-effecs wounds should heal quickly. Like really quickly. 150 damage wound should heal no more then 12 RL hours
  3. Buff elixir effect strength. Intead of (2^(n-2))*10*qCoeff make it (4^(n-2))*10*qCoeff. It will make it more impactful and more desirable to push the quality
  4. The healing effects should work faster. Also, remove the "wound conversion" and just let it heal normally. And add Coaler's Cough healing

2. Make it interesting
I suggest to add some effects from the credos to the alchemy. We already have them in the game so I don't think it will be that hard to implement. But it would be so much more fun. The rule is simple: improve chances and quantity but never quality (otherwise it will become mandatory and that is bad)
Example of such effects:
  • A chance to double herbs picked
  • Reduced risk for loss of fishing equipment
  • Increased chance of a rare catch
  • Gain more meat from butchering
  • Increased crop yield
  • Increased cutting speed of trees and logs
  • Increased board and block yield from logs
  • Hearth Magic cost reduced by %
  • Increased stone chipping speed and mining strength
  • Chance to dig out Quarryartz Stone
Nearly every credo has one or two effects that can become alchemy properties. Buffs should not not be large, q40 3-ingredient alchemy potion should be slightly worse then the credo effect

3. Quality of Life
  • All processed alchemical ingredients (Lye Ablution, Fiery Combustion, Herbal Grind, etc) should have a tooltip that mentions the source ingredients. It is simply impossible to work with them, distracted for a moment and you've already forgot what did you combine
  • Fiery Combustion should not require Brimstone. Not only it is a contested resource but it also expires quite fast. Requiring such ingredient as a part of your daily alchemical gameplay is a nightmare
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby wonder-ass » Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:51 pm

more interesting buffs to the elixirs would be cool. never really understood why the wound healing is so terrible, as long as it doesn't heal bum burn I'm fine with it tbh.
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Nightdawg » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:00 pm

wonder-ass wrote:as long as it doesn't heal bum burn I'm fine with it tbh.


same
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby guterpop » Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:18 am

As someone who looked into alch for the first time in this world, I agree but would also like a side note for something I think would be nice too, alch is fun. Still, I feel like it should also serve a combat/espionage role like poisons in real life so you could make an elixir that does a large amount of damage or gives debuffs that would last a while and spike someone's water with it! Make it so someone with exp*per can see if it spiked or not and this would make a significant impact on where you get water from other players, it also would make the fact that you can't trust everyone you meet more hammed in for players and would force a village to protect there water and drinks from newbies.
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Trasnmit33472 » Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:17 pm

How do I get enough EXP and get access to all the minerals and herbsdonkey kong
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Lalaxx » Wed May 31, 2023 12:29 am

i agree with post, this alchemy is a very cool mechanic and i didn't saw anything like it in any other game and yet its a bit useless for its time investing. also fix crafting because its very annoying to make bulk of same elixir
https://youtu.be/5ZtwSYS1LYQ
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Delamore » Wed May 31, 2023 2:40 am

Lalaxx wrote:i agree with post, this alchemy is a very cool mechanic and i didn't saw anything like it in any other game and yet its a bit useless for its time investing. also fix crafting because its very annoying to make bulk of same elixir
https://youtu.be/5ZtwSYS1LYQ

One of the worst parts of alchemy for me was fighting with the UI.
I think a proper alchemy UI window that has you placing the ingredients in slots for a craft would both solve some of the UI headache and also make alchemy feel like a more interesting and unique system without actually changing any alchemy mechanics.
Another UI issue others have pointed out is that the intermediate materials like fiery combustion absolutely need to have information on what they were made out of. Currently the moment you lose track of what something is made out of it becomes an entirely useless item.
A non UI change would be to add a new intermediate material that is made from brimstone and used in the fiery combustion recipe, this way you still require brimstone for alchemy but you're not longer on a time limit before the brimstone decays.

There's probably plenty more UI related that could be done to make storing / handling larger amounts of alchemy intermediates and finished elixirs easier but I think just the above changes would go a long way to making alchemy less of a hassle and more enjoyable.
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Austinh15 » Wed May 31, 2023 3:28 am

This entire thread reeks of skill issues and whiny puny alchemy nerds. Back in my day, I didn't know if a potion would turn my swollen bumps into nerve damage. Just get better nerds idk what to say I even made a public resource for you.
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby Lalaxx » Wed May 31, 2023 1:43 pm

Austinh15 wrote:This entire thread reeks of skill issues and whiny puny alchemy nerds. Back in my day, I didn't know if a potion would turn my swollen bumps into nerve damage. Just get better nerds idk what to say I even made a public resource for you.


What's your point even? You don't want alchemy become more viable and convinient? What's your comment about?
Or you just scared once alchemy become one of the key aspects of the game (which i want it to be) then more people actually start learning it?

Right now its clunky,annoying and not very efficient so no one really cares about it except kinds of you.
But I can assume it still got a lot of development time so devs should really think about finishing it off.

I think a proper alchemy UI window that has you placing the ingredients in slots for a craft would both solve some of the UI headache and also make alchemy feel like a more interesting and unique system without actually changing any alchemy mechanics.

I agree with this, it should have different crafting window so it not interfere with other crafting mechanics in any way or it just become more bugs.
Another UI issue others have pointed out is that the intermediate materials like fiery combustion absolutely need to have information on what they were made out of. Currently the moment you lose track of what something is made out of it becomes an entirely useless item.

This I agree too, since you anyway can see effects of unlabeled elixir jar so why not.
A non UI change would be to add a new intermediate material that is made from brimstone and used in the fiery combustion recipe, this way you still require brimstone for alchemy but you're not longer on a time limit before the brimstone decays.

This one not so sure, it might be better to leave it as it is if Alchemy actually become more effective. Chemical components should have some decay element so leave it be brimstone.
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Re: Alchemy Suggestions

Postby IaCobak » Wed May 31, 2023 1:59 pm

APXEOLOG wrote:2. Make it interesting
I suggest to add some effects from the credos to the alchemy. We already have them in the game so I don't think it will be that hard to implement. But it would be so much more fun. The rule is simple: improve chances and quantity but never quality (otherwise it will become mandatory and that is bad)
Example of such effects:
  • A chance to double herbs picked
  • Reduced risk for loss of fishing equipment
  • Increased chance of a rare catch
  • Gain more meat from butchering
  • Increased crop yield
  • Increased cutting speed of trees and logs
  • Increased board and block yield from logs
  • Hearth Magic cost reduced by %
  • Increased stone chipping speed and mining strength
  • Chance to dig out Quarryartz Stone
Nearly every credo has one or two effects that can become alchemy properties. Buffs should not not be large, q40 3-ingredient alchemy potion should be slightly worse then the credo effect


Yes, please! That great improve for alchemy. Because right now alchemy good only for healing.
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