Endgame

[Porteirofag]

Is he right? Or just a sore loser?

[Potjeh]

Technically infinite grind can work now that there's no permadeath, but it's a terrible engame so people borequit en masse when they finish building their base.

[ctopolon3]

end game = grind stats\looking for fight
(atm here is 1-4man with 1000ua 2000stragicon & no chance to make party against them)
chance that u found ppl for trade \ raid \ troll = tend to 0
200ppl in 250*250 minimaps = so u need to run 250-500 minimaps to found someone (big chance that u not welcome there)

[Granger]

I think there is a valid point about the statcap being rmoved without further comments (or I missed them too), I still have no clue why they got removed that quickly (I think it wasn't long enough in effect for the players to actually experience it to make up their minds about it) and quietly (as the reasoning behind this revert wasn't given).

[iamahh]

population was very low so they decide give stat grind back

[jordancoles]

Stat caps were nice

I'd rather it have been 450-500 instead of 330 or whatever it was though

[ChildhoodObesity]

they were meant to add a ua/mc/mm/str/agi/con/perc statcap at 999 and then they said they might change it to 666 and then they never friggin did it!!!

i think if they capped combat stats and had permadeath in the game itd be good!

[Headchef]

i think if they capped combat stats and had permadeath in the game itd be good!

500 base attributes and 500 abilities seem quite fair.

or 666

either way it would be significantly better than having chars with 3k+ base attributes against you

I understand if you are in the 3k situation and others are lower you want it to remain but I don't think it's healthy for the game, 500-600 WAY more realistic for lots of people. Then maybe combat can someday be more about skill than numbers. I can dream atleast

[ekzarh]

I would agree probably.
I would state right here that 95% of mechanics which can make Haven much better game are ruined by 2 simple things - bots and unlimited alts. And bost are unsolvable with unlimited alts. Unless it solved, the game is stuck with 200-400 ppl playerbase forever.

In classic mmorpg games like L2 or WoW you grind levels to reach the cap. And after that you can only improve your 'fighting power' if you find a party.
So apart from other things caps affect socialization. But they have drawbacks obviously. Like boredom and army of statcapped bot-assisted pvpers (if i can make one 2k chars, I'll put the same effort, make 4-5 666 chars, write some code and become like 2-3 manual 666 players).

So my recipe would be:
* Stat cap
* Permadeath
* Endgame content. Not just simple one, but the one needing hundreds of hours and giving PVP boosts (you mast have ways to become stronger afer reaching the cap. Like boss loot, quest loot or things like that)
* Disabled alting. 15$/mo sub. Every next char on account can have max half stats of the main one. No armies of combat alts unless you pay for it. Period.

*Optional free 100-capped accounts for hermits/newbs/larpers. So that army of that free alts are meaningless in quality grind and pvp.

One by one they will never work. Only together. Endgame is easily beaten with 2k chars. Stat cap is boring without endgame content. Permadeath absence makes me go to play other non permadeath games with more and new content. And just everything can be easuly ruined with army of alts.

[Sevenless]

The problem is the only real endgame haven has is infinite grind right now. Stat caps removed that. Heck, even without stat caps there's plenty of "effective" stat caps in existence already. Took me about 2 months to hit the point where my crafter could do everything I wanted to, and then I just stopped raising any skills. The only truly infinite grind is combat stats. Thing is, every long term successful sandbox MMO I've ever seen depends on pvp to drive endgame. Permadeath may make pvp more intense, but it also makes it incredibly rare. You can't really have pvp events or continuous pvp when it takes 3 months to regrind your character. But as mentioned, removing longterm grind destroys the magic formula that makes haven work.

My personal proposed solution, last time I debated it anyway, was: Harsher scaling on stats after 300, so the effect was much smaller (getting rid of "smooth" formulas that apply evenly to achieve this), removal of permadeath (cost to pvp is simply too high unless the game takes 1-2 weeks to max a character, which is completely out of question for the pacing haven has) and finally but most importantly adding pvp combat events/resources/competitions that encourage frequent pvp and somehow encourages level playing fields and provide anonymity so the top faction doesn't win it every time. Constant pvp (or at least weekly pvp events) could be used as a resource sink as well as being fun for people who enjoy pvp.

Unfortunately, small dev team means if you wanted to try that solution you'd need to spend a long time coding these mechanics. Before people start trying to claim the game is "unplayable due to lack of permadeath" as I've seen often, the game is currently maintaining the highest active population we've seen longterm in the past three worlds according to the haven tracker widget.