Reclaiming Barter Stands

[DaniAngione]

Just a QoL improvement since bashing and rebuilding barter stands isn't really a challenge ... but it is very annoying - especially when you like to use different/planned colors for the stands :3

The idea is:
Allow Village Lawspeakers to "reclaim" barter stands inside their own villages.
That would definitely help owners of markets to manage stands, transfer them to new people, etc...

To prevent "possible abuse" (although unlikely if a trustworthy market) the following measures could be taken:
- The option could only show up if the owner of the stand has not interacted with it for a certain time (i.e.: 15 days)
- Like p-claims claimed by villages, it can't be done if the Barter Stand was there BEFORE the village (Thanks, Granger!)
- All hands are erased, making it not viable for "stealing" through changing the price. (Thanks, Maze!)
- This could be done through "Revoke the Privilege" village power.

A couple of ideas that could make this easier and/or more secure and also offer more control over Barter Stands:
- A Key-based system so Stands could be managed by more than one person (dangerous to lose key, however - perhaps a simple color/perm system could work better?) (Thanks, Hola!)
- Option to "destroy" the stand twice: first destruction removes the owner and wipes all Hands; second one destroys the object itself. (Thanks, Hola again ) This could leave scents if not in a place where you have vandal perms.

[Granger]

Sounds reasonable.
Possibly with a similar rule to personal claims: that the stand needs to be younger than the village authority object that projects authority over it.

[LadyV]

No it is personal property. If anything it must be treated like a locked item. Break into it or destroy it. Both of which leave vandal/theft scents. Let's not set a situation where a market gets set up and then on the whim of one or a few "reclaim" it under trumped up claims. A market stall should always be considered private property. That way you have another level of faith between market and trader.

Bashing stall is annoying for a purpose. We are talking Haven here. If there is a loophole some will use it. So don't ask for one, please.

[maze]

If the reclaiming process also wiped all current hands attached to that stand and items.
basiclly making it a fresh stand.
Else this could be exploited by someone claiming the stand and putting one hand somewhere or swiching the cost. :s

[AntiBlitz]

No it is personal property. If anything it must be treated like a locked item. Break into it or destroy it. Both of which leave vandal/theft scents. Let's not set a situation where a market gets set up and then on the whim of one or a few "reclaim" it under trumped up claims. A market stall should always be considered private property. That way you have another level of faith between market and trader.

Bashing stall is annoying for a purpose. We are talking Haven here. If there is a loophole some will use it. So don't ask for one, please.

I believe you are missing the point, if its on a claim owned by a city such as Aurora, they already have access to all your trade goods anyways, i mean they could literally just knock down the shitty fence or pali in "their own" fort and take your stuff. There was never any other layer except the one you believe you had, which was nothing more then a gentleman's agreement not to steal all your shit. That stand does nothing but display goods, so allowing the owner of the village to remove its claim doesnt even do anything anyways, they always had access to your trade goods. This just makes it easier to manage a system that is already in place as is, which is to knock down the stand, and remove all the goods in the house, for another trader to use.

[DaniAngione]

No it is personal property. If anything it must be treated like a locked item. Break into it or destroy it. Both of which leave vandal/theft scents. Let's not set a situation where a market gets set up and then on the whim of one or a few "reclaim" it under trumped up claims. A market stall should always be considered private property. That way you have another level of faith between market and trader.

Bashing stall is annoying for a purpose. We are talking Haven here. If there is a loophole some will use it. So don't ask for one, please.

It is not personal property, technically. It's public space offered by a town, just like placing a sign on the sidewalk announcing you're selling cake doesn't give you ownership of the sidewalk. The items being sold (and whatever is being collected) are not inside the stall, they are inside the trader's house, so destroying the stall doesn't give you those items.

If "reclaiming" a stall erases all current offers (deletes all "Hand that Gives" and "Hand that Takes"), it would be impossible to abuse this to "steal" a trader's belongings. (Edit: Maze posted that right when I was typing )
And, honestly - it's not like this is needed for a market to steal the wares of a trader. Any market could easily get inside the trader's house or use Village ability "Revoke the Privilege" to remove a Personal Claim and then get inside, loot all the belongings from that trader and it wouldn't even leave scents. This is already possible with the game mechanics and it is fairly easy to be done in any market model, Aurora or CF.

So your concern is somewhat pointless since it can already be done with hardly any effort.
And leaving scents is bad too. Person stops playing, abandons their stands and then you have to fill your own market with Vandalism scents - scents that can be easily collected by anyone willing to gank you or send you Nidbanes - because you had to commit vandalism to renew the stores of someone that has stopped playing months ago? This makes no sense at all, honestly. Ask Tuz if he would prefer to be able to reclaim stands from long abandoned houses in CF or destroy each one and leave vandalism scents

I respect the desire of not having any new loopholes that could be exploited by people with bad intentions and yes, I wouldn't like that either. I'd never suggest something that could be abused by mean people But - with all respect - your response doesn't really show much knowledge about how barter stands work at all. As someone running a market, I can pretty much tell that for Lawspeakers to be able to reclaim stalls under the conditions mentioned in the OP, would only bring benefits to the game and no exploits whatsoever.

[LadyV]

My point is and has been it should always be personal property. I am not talking current issues but suggesting it be changed to such. I do not care for loose authority. As for trustworthy markets i am making no statement on that. If a stand is on claimed land and the owner(s) decide to revoke permissions then you must break into it or destroy it like you would breaking into a chest. It is personal property.

[DaniAngione]

But, again: the valuables are not in the stand.
Breaking the stand doesn't give you access to the items;
Reclaiming the stand wouldn't give you access either.

As for changing it like you suggest, it goes both ways. What if a trader is actually a "criminal" and uses this "defense" of personal property to attack the market by setting siege inside his claim? The market would have to break into itself and leave a lot of scents on itself? Under those conditions, no one would be willing to risk and make a public market, while the current mechanics allow market owners to make sure their clients and traders are 100% safe because they can intervene if needed. So, yes, it must be an unwritten trust relationship, it is the only viable way, changing the game mechanics to what you suggest would give more ways to grief and exploit markets, as a trader. Isn't that what you want to avoid?

The power balance must be tipped in favor of the villages in things like this because, yes, markets should be built on trust and the power to ensure safety must be on the market owners, otherwise traders would have the power to exploit others themselves.

[LadyV]

@DaniAngione

Items in containers should never be a issue of siege. If they are now then that's a mistake on the developers part.

Setting up a siege item on a personal claim that holds a stand is handled by village authority. Simply revoke the claim. The stand it's self is personal property. They should always be personal property and built by traders. They may conflict with your color scheme but they are.

If were are talking about a new type of stand by all means put forth a suggestion. The topic however is about reclaiming the existing stands. If you want a village level trade device that the village can issue authority over at any time then ask for that. Barter stands however should always be personal.

[DaniAngione]

I fail to see the difference of a village allowing someone to build a barter stand vs. having a barter stand being given to you other than thousands of potential exploits one could come up with while being allowed to build something inside someone else's village that would require scents to destroy. Gate blocks, griefing, etc...

That said, your responses continue to make no sense. The items are not in the stand, I've said that a thousand times why is it so important to protect the stand as a holy personal property? Nothing can be stolen by reclaiming or destroying a stand. Nothing, nada, zero. The items are not in the stand (is that phrase not clear enough?)

The items are in containers, usually cupboards, inside houses used by the traders. Hence why I mentioned personal claims and such, because - like you say yourself - a village has the power to breach inside a trader house at any time if it wants. Why would the barter stand be a concern and require mechanic changes given that it is in the house where the items themselves are and your suggestion adds nothing to protect the houses, just the barter stands? They are literally the least important thing to be protected.

And finally, no, you should put up a new suggestion for what you want done for barter stands, this is about Reclaiming Barter Stands. If you are against it, that is fine, you are entitled to be against it But it is the suggestion of this thread, so don't tell me I need to make a new thread if you are the one coming with a different suggestion

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but you're being clearly clueless about how Barter stands and markets work. Continuing this line of discussion won't get anywhere.