Peacful / Criminal / Murderer

[Lojka]

Here is one more idea for outlaw system rework. But first... the critique

Critique:
Currently outlaw buff don't really matter for most people, you can't spot if someone is outlaw, they do not have anything negative while they are online
and the thing, that they are ingame while offline do not works well, because everyone logs out at their base behind countless walls
So being outlaw is normal for everyone and don't influance well

Idea:
Make 3 statuses:
1. Peacful - just normal hartling, who did nothing wrong
2. Criminal - works like current outlaw, you make some criminal act, you get criminal buff (or outlaw), can't logout. This status will be alive for about 3 days.
3. Murderer - if you are very agressive and kill someone (or maybe even knock-out) you get murderer buff. More on that later. This status will be alive for 7 days for each kill.

Visibility:
Make heartling criminal/murderer status visible by all (by icon or name color or circle on floor)
blue / grey / red - will be the colors of statuses

Attacking other people:
1. if you attack blue (peacful) heartling - you get criminal (grey) status, if you kill (or KO) him - you get red (murderer)
2. if you attack criminal - you do not get criminal status. Because it is okay to attack criminals. (But you get bad status for killing them, because they must be judged not killed)
3. red (murderers) are bad people - you do not get any bad status for attacking them or killing.
And you can attack red players even without rage (because it is not rage to attack murderers, it is self defence)

Edit: one more thing about self-defence: when any player attack you (give you combat) - any battle actions against him won't give you criminal status - you are just defending yourself
so he is turned grey for you (while combat is not ended)


Or maybe you get red buff for:
KO or Kill - blue status guy
Kill only - grey status guy

And this system totaly need more negative things for murderers.
It could be - no visitors gate passing (for other villages, ot yours)
Harder hearth-home maybe (used only if less 50% TW)
... something else

This whole idea is inspirered and tested in Ultima Online
there was one more thing - murderers could'nt go to towns there
And this system was working good. There was half blue players, half red ones... if you accidently get criminal status you wait for it to wore off.

This will help to defend from real murderers.
Murderers will be in more danger and that is ok - you are murderer after all

So if your faction what to kill every hermit or faction enemies - there will be red guys in your army.
The more red guys you will have - more ragless hermits will come to stop your aggression in this world

and in big battles if you do not whant to be criminal (outlaw) you just only attack guys who are already criminals

Attacking bad guys and not getting outlaw is the way it should be.

[boshaw]

Attacking other people:
1. if you attack blue (peacful) heartling - you get criminal (grey) status, if you kill (or KO) him - you get red (murderer)
2. if you attack criminal - you do not get criminal status. Because it is okay to attack criminals. (But you get bad status for killing them, because they must be judged not killed)
3. red (murderers) are bad people - you do not get any bad status for attacking them or killing.
And you can attack red players even without rage (because it is not rage to attack murderers, it is self defence)

So if someone rammed in my town, stole all my goods, cut my trees, and committed other criminal acts short of KO/murder I'm expected to only KO the guy if I see him out and about because otherwise i'll become a murderer. Which will then let anyone kill me without consequence (or needing rage) along with the potential negative debuffs that come with it?

No thanks. A criminal is not judged simply by KO'ing him and letting them go home, not to mention criminal alts can bait you into murdering them simply by walking around with low HHP so that a cleave or sting would easily kill their alt and force you to get murderer status.

[Aceb]

Meh it does change nothing beside that if I defend myself from attacker and kill them succesfully, I'm prohibited from trading anywhere else and everyone elso who knows me not much won't come to trade with me, since they can be scared I might kill them.

Remember that outlaw is sometimes more a resulf of a battle than a crime. You can argue it's a crime, but battle has it's own rules that too, fall under scents.
Also, beside prohibiting one from visiting markets / friends settlements, it's too much of a hassle.

The only good idea here is to make those who commit a crime, somehow see difference between hearthlings and crimelings.

[Lojka]

I'm expected to only KO the guy if I see him out and about because otherwise i'll become a murderer.

No, you are attacking are grey (criminal) so you can KO him, and take your things back, and because you are commiting this deeds to a criminal - you stay clean

not to mention criminal alts can bait you into murdering them

if you cleave everything that goes into your view - you clearly would kill someone the other day, was it bait or not.
If you don't whant to kill - do not stick your sword in ppl

if I defend myself from attacker and kill them succesfully,

Murder is not something that is made instantly, most of times you should intentionally attack man after he is KO-ed

if you KO-ed a grey (criminal) - you do not get punished, if you continue - it was your intetion - so you are a murderer
if you defend against red (murderer) - you are free to fight him for death

all other things like: i could accidently kill with my first cleave - this is a matter of combat topic, not criminal one (it is different question)

Remember that outlaw is sometimes more a resulf of a battle than a crime.

Even if you are in battle if you attack blue characters - you deserve to be a criminal

if you do not whant ot be one - do not attack blue (peacfull) players, it's easy as it is

if all your enemy is blue and you do not whant to be a criminal - you do not attack them, that's easy.

if two group of blue people meet each other - the first who make attack is criminal, others are free to punish him for this, or start attacking every blue characters
but if you attack blue ones - you are criminal
so you can clearly stay blue even in faction battles - ofc in case if you only punish aggressive people, not murdering everyone

forgot to say, there was one more technique in UO - the first time someone attacked you - it turns grey only for you - you are free to defend against them
it is like self defence - you won't get criminal for battle a guy who attacked you first

[Aceb]

I'm expected to only KO the guy if I see him out and about because otherwise i'll become a murderer.

No, you are attacking are grey (criminal) so you can KO him, and take your things back, and because you are commiting this deeds to a criminal - you stay clean

not to mention criminal alts can bait you into murdering them

if you cleave everything that goes into your view - you clearly would kill someone the other day, was it bait or not.
If you don't whant to kill - do not stick your sword in ppl

if I defend myself from attacker and kill them succesfully,

Murder is not something that is made instantly, most of times you should intentionally attack man after he is KO-ed

Oh yeah because I cannot be baited to kill low HP alt. Murder can be done instantly and can happen. Just because You always assume that someone might be at full hp or "unlucky" people happens very rare, is wrong on your end.

if you KO-ed a grey (criminal) - you do not get punished, if you continue - it was your intetion - so you are a murderer
if you defend against red (murderer) - you are free to fight him for death

Again, I can kill criminal by accident, not knowing their HP is low. By this, you automatically say it was my intention while I even might not be close to that.

all other things like: i could accidently kill with my first cleave - this is a matter of combat topic, not criminal one (it is different question)

"My hands are clean" like it's not DIRECTLY CHAINED.

Remember that outlaw is sometimes more a resulf of a battle than a crime.

Even if you are in battle if you attack just blue characters - you deserve to be a criminal

Oh yeah, blue guys are blocking me and stuff in battle and I deserve to be criminal to fight my way to the target of battle. Because in your eyes, peaceful people in BATTLE still deserve to be in some way "protected"

if you do not whant ot be one - do not attack blue (peacfull) players, it's easy as it is

yeah. peaceful players aren't peaceful if they come to battle field

if all your enemy is blue and you do not whant to be a criminal - you do not attack them, that's easy.

Yeah, just let them do whatever non-direct action they can do against me, allowing their "non-blue" friend(s) have advantage over me. Because apparently in battle You should still be hold by protection hand!

forgot to say, there was one more technique in UO - the first time someone attacked you - it turns grey only for you - you are free to defend against them
it is like self defence - you won't get criminal for battle a guy who attacked you first

So I understand that battles should always be 1vs1 or something for You?

[Lojka]

"My hands are clean" like it's not DIRECTLY CHAINED.

Yes this things are chained, and it is a matter of disscussion, should murdering criminal give you murder or just criminal, or maybe this should be fixed on other end - so you can't kill guy without KO, or other things.
anyway, this part of Idea is a matter of different disscussion, all this "alt bait" problems is different topic.
there is pleanty of alts problems already.

blue guys are blocking me and stuff in battle

But heartlings are free to go where they whant... that is problem ? if you don't whant them to walk there - you can KO them, but if are KO-ing someone because you don't like them - you are totaly a criminal

yeah. peaceful players aren't peaceful if they come to battle field

So i found a village of very aggresive players, and i gather some white knights to punish them - they will be all red/grey
we will be all blue - what problem with that ?

it is like battle of order and chaos. If you come to fight orcs that do not make you an orc yourself

let them do whatever in-direct action they can do against me

as said before - if you do not like, what other peacful characters do in this world - you go and punch or push them - just as you do now.
But if you make them stop, you are the aggressor, not them.

So I understand that battles should always be 1vs1 or something

Battle will still be battle
if you want to stay clean - you attack bad guys.
If you want all guys on other side to be on the ground - you are totaly a criminal, if you want all them dead - you are murderer
sounds very logic to me

if you want to kill your enemy - this makes you murderer, just do it and that's all

All enemy is on the ground, you win - you criminal debuff will ware off in 3 days, you take your spoiles of war and go away...

but wait - you want to kill them ? ok go on, and take your murderer debuff. For what you ask ? You just murdered people ! you Deserve it.

So battle can still go as it do now. No problems.

[boshaw]

I'm expected to only KO the guy if I see him out and about because otherwise i'll become a murderer.

No, you are attacking are grey (criminal) so you can KO him, and take your things back

You can't take back things someone has vandalized; furthermore, unless you catch them in the act or on the way home you almost certainly will never see the items they took ever again. KO does not do justice to all the criminal acts that are possible in this game.

[Lojka]

I'm expected to only KO the guy if I see him out and about because otherwise i'll become a murderer.

No, you are attacking are grey (criminal) so you can KO him, and take your things back

You can't take back things someone has vandalized; furthermore, unless you catch them in the act or on the way home you almost certainly will never see the items they took ever again. KO does not do justice to all the criminal acts that are possible in this game.

But killing for carrots is wrong too, don't you agree ?

[rye130]

No thanks. Part of the fun of this game is not knowing the type of player you've just run into. Having a big sign over their head saying "murderer" isn't fun.

[Hrenli]

Edit: one more thing about self-defence: when any player attack you (give you combat) - any battle actions against him won't give you criminal status - you are just defending yourself
so he is turned grey for you (while combat is not ended)

This is a very bad idea. I don't even think it is necessary to explain why, should be quite obvious if you think about it.